SuzieQ
I am trying to work through this with WH, and he IS trying. Progress is slow. Patience is key. This situation reminds me of when I was pregnant with my first child and suddenly, everywhere I looked I saw pregnant woman. Before this I only knew 1 friend whose husband cheated, but since my own DD two months ago I hear about cheaters EVERYWHERE. EVERYWHERE. :-(

One thing I'm starting to feel - and I know it's not healthy/right - is that OF COURSE I should try to work it out with WH. If we were to split and I were to end up with another man eventually, it seems statistically probable that he may cheat on me too. Why go through this again? At least with WH I know what I'm getting, and we have a long (and I thought special) history together, and a family to raise. And the few family/friends who know about my situation say, "Most men aren't like that. Most men know a good thing when they've got it." It's annoying how many people keep saying this. So why didn't my WH know he had a good thing with (amazing) me and our (super awesome) little family?... Why is this the thing everybody keeps saying to me? Is there something to it?
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Graceandhope
I don't know that I have real answers for you but here is where we are working from:
Is he trying? When it's not about the affair, do you like him? Enjoy being with him? Are you able to connect ? Are there more and more good days? Is he still trying ? Is it a safe place for your kids? Can you still find bits of that person you thought he was?

Lastly I've tried am trying to step back and see it really wasn't about me. I was a participant in getting us to a certain point but I didn't make him turn away or make the choices he did and he was the one that chose the easier ego boost (and the anxiety of making the choices and living that life) over facing our problems, looking at his weakness and working on it together.

People on the outside try to help and their advice is based on their own experiences. What they should say is I can't imagine how difficult this is for you. I'll support you what ever you decide. They need to let you vent without jumping on the bandwagon . But they don't know
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Anna26
SuzieQ wrote:
I am trying to work through this with WH, and he IS trying. Progress is slow. Patience is key. This situation reminds me of when I was pregnant with my first child and suddenly, everywhere I looked I saw pregnant woman. Before this I only knew 1 friend whose husband cheated, but since my own DD two months ago I hear about cheaters EVERYWHERE. EVERYWHERE. :-(

One thing I'm starting to feel - and I know it's not healthy/right - is that OF COURSE I should try to work it out with WH. If we were to split and I were to end up with another man eventually, it seems statistically probable that he may cheat on me too. Why go through this again? At least with WH I know what I'm getting, and we have a long (and I thought special) history together, and a family to raise. And the few family/friends who know about my situation say, "Most men aren't like that. Most men know a good thing when they've got it." It's annoying how many people keep saying this. So why didn't my WH know he had a good thing with (amazing) me and our (super awesome) little family?... Why is this the thing everybody keeps saying to me? Is there something to it?




I'm so glad it's not just me that thinks about what may or may not happen with someone new, should that person ever come along. It's crossed my mind several times that maybe it's better the devil you know and at least you have a chance of hanging on to the essence of what was a stable relationship and perhaps building on it. I've also thought that perhaps I would never be able to trust someone else in quite the same way and I would be better off on my own. But that's the thing with love and trust isn't it? Every time do this we risk a part of ourselves and risk another shed load of pain. But sometimes the joy and happiness outweigh the risks and I believe the human race is naturally and eternally optimistic. Maybe that's a good thing, but heavens, I need to keep reminding myself of this right now.

And I think most men and women DO know when they already have a good thing. Deep down they do. But it's all blocked out by the excitement and fireworks that is an affair. They try and justify any misgivings by telling themselves that it's okay, there is a good reason for what is happening, a problem somewhere. There must be something in the marriage that is making them unhappy or why would the affair feel so right. They can't see that the problem tends to be deep within. In my ws's case I believe the stress of caring for elderly parents drove a rift. He won't share things so the situation became worse. He needs to figure this out for himself in order for us to have a chance at reconciling. I'm not holding my breath right now as I'm going through a bit of a pessimistic phase. I can only hope, but sometimes it's so hard to even hang on to that.

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Kalmarjan
^^^ this exactly.

Or, at least in my case. It felt so right, but I knew it was wrong. I can't reconcile it still unless I add anger and justification into the mix.

Once the anger fades, the justification went.

What I was left with was an awakening, realizing I had done something completely stupid.

Then again, knowing that helped show me the way to humility, and subsequently my (and our) recovery from this mess.

Ironically, I was cheated on before I met my wife. That's why I hated cheaters so much. I never, in a million years, would have guessed I could do that to my wife.
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Intuition77
Ok I really struggled with this. First let me
Say any WS -you may have an issue with this post. It is not meant as an attack just some
Of my own Observations. Also this isnt meant as a you shouldn't stay with your WS post. I think that is more determined by their willingness to change, to deal wth issues and if when you consider what the affair took from the marriage-is there enough of a marriage left. And I'm certainly not saying ALL wS or BS are like this, again just some observations. This was a huge issue for me because my marriage isn't surviving and I really struggled with never trusting anyone again so I had to logic the situation in order to be ok knowing that more then likely one day I'll meet someone else.

I've come to the conclusion that everyone COULD cheat but not everyone does. I've noticed so many similarities in various WS stories. So I think there is something to a cheater "type". I don't mean that cruelly. And this don't meant as an insult as I think all people show these qualities at least a little but way wards seem to have these issues in larger quantities. but Generally I've noticed they lack personal insight, they seem to live a more surface life where they don't go deep inside often to deal with things, they tend to be conflict avoiders and distancers which seems to lend to feelings of nonfulfillment, unhappiness, lost feelings etc which then seem to lead to feelings of entitlement and selfish impulse (I'm good, I do good things why don't I feel happy fulfilled etc) they then seem to miss the personal responsibility boat when it comes to these feelings-they don't question that THEY aren't fulfilling these needs but that others SHOULD. There's almost a childish level of selfishness-where they aren't in your face evil "I don't care what you want" selfish but a very covert shame level of You want this but that scares me so my own fears are more import at then your needs. They seem to struggle with shame, ego and a need to put on masks for people. They seem to lack an ability to be honest with themselves. And shame & an inability to deal
With deeper issues seems to keep them
In an endless loop of behaviors. Like I notice many lie by omission as their first choice-because this allows them
To live with the lies without viewing themselves as a "liar". However deep down they know it's lying and wrong and they push that away but the shame is still simmering. So when asked outright they will lie boldly because then the choice is face the shame and earlier lies or keep going, this entrenches them deeper in the shame and lies so they have to lie more to themselves and others to keep going. That also sends them deeper into the behaviors their lying about because most of the time they're behaviors that allow them to forget or get a temp high away from the shame.

I'm not saying WS are all horrible people or worse then people who don't cheat. Just that I think there's a lot more going on like they have an early learned ability to go to deeper levels of denial and self preservation then others.

There's way more similarities too. They tend to:
Struggle with addictions more often, struggle with intimacy, seem to share fears of people truly knowing them, admitting their own needs and fears, feeling powerless, feeling out of control, depending on others (not that these fears are unique to cheaters but they seem to struggle more severely with them almost as if they view them as severe defects while the rest of us consider them fairly common) they seem to be less invested in life-as if they live on the surface afraid to develop deep attachments to others-think he may be a great dad but yet he seems to overwork himself to the point of not being as deeply involved with his children (as if he somehow fears in doing so this will expose some weakness or flaw of his) or she's a great friend yet she can be flighty as if when you truly need her she pulls away some to distance herself (as if she's afraid by truly being there for her friend she may not be enough etc)

I'm not trying to elicit sympathy for WS. But I've come to my own conclusion that damage has to be behind the selfishness except in the case of true sociopaths.

So "could" anyone in the right circumstances (opportunity, marriage issues etc) cheat? Yes but not everyone will. We can't ever control another persons choices and (frighteningly we've all learned) we may never truly know another persons heart. BUT there's a huge amount of similarities in BSs too. We CAN control ourselves.

BS tend to:
Be more codependent, be pursuers, conflict aggressive (we need to deal with this issue NOW-the wife who wants to talk about something in the middle of the night because she can't sleep until it's off her chest?) or conflict avoidance in their own ways (the wife who over focuses on the kids to avoid dealing with the marriage issue) struggle with their own feelings of low self worth sometimes but maybe by making sure they take care of others or putting themselves last. The fixers and caretakers. The ones who give and give but don't think they deserve to take but secretly feel so hurt no one gives to them. Tends to lack boundaries. Never says no. Tends to give up more and more of themselves in an effort to please others and fix other peoples problems-can be an enabler in this way and loses their sense of self.

Trusts others yet don't fully trust themselves-they may miss red flags because they doubt themselves. Seem to have a better grasp at self insight or at least more willingness to do so but seem
To run
With it in the opposite direction-they want to fix everything as if it's all their fault or within their power. There's a lot more but I know I'm rambling so my point is I've decided I can't ever KNOW if someone else will cheat. But I do KNOW me. I've realized I can make better choices trusting myself and my gut and changing things within my control to make better choices. I can see
Now that these similarities exist because these two "types" function
Off each other. A giver & a taker. Action & words. Selfish & selfless. A distancer & a pursuer. I can't make someone else be faithful but I can control how I function off someone else. I can't tell someone else how to dance-but I can choose my own steps.

For example I've realized my WS for years was really great at talking about what he was going to do, but not the actual follow through. And I was there to follow through. Because someone had to. Or so I thought then. And I somehow believed he always meant to follow through. And maybe he did mean to but he didn't do it and I ignored my needs and gut there. I've realized for me going forward this is a huge piece of the puzzle for me
In someone else-do they do what they say their going to do. So simple. So basic. And yet for years this bothered me and for years I explained it away as I was expecting too much etc-I took his flaw and responsibility and made it mine to fix it. Freeing him from
Having to do anything and basically not trusting my own feelings. I know for me if I'm ever in another relationship I need to see actions not just words and if they don't match I'm not expecting too much, I'm
Not too sensitive-I'm just me and I know what I need.

So do they realize what they have? Yes probably. Until their own issues get so deep that the choice becomes deal with my own flaws or pin them on someone else and they chose the latter. So they convince themselves what they have isn't so great to explain away their own problems and flawed choices. And they have the ability (that I don't think everyone possesses) to stay stuck
In that loop indefinitely-they have to CHOOSE to change things and turn their life around.

Almost everyone suffers at some
Point from the grass is greener syndrome-some people choose to water their own grass. And some people chose to blame their brown grass on everyone else & switch fence sides. I think if your a BS if you use this experience to work on yourself you can be sure that going forward you will surround yourself with people that show a propensity for
Watering their own grass. Maybe they're new people. Or maybe they're familiar people who learned new ways.
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Tim2014
Well stated intution77. My wS doesnt like herself carefully hiding it from me and now this is the situation were in. We're still together as to why I'm not really sure of that at this point.
From all this I've told her no one can make your inner Being be happy that comes from within. Walls have always been present on her part and now there even built higher and stronger. She's out of the fog but j can tell you from my stand point only that now she sees what she had all along but shame guilt self loathing whatever it is holding her back isn't going to put in the effort to do anything. So this is the quandary of what to do. Her mom talks to me all the time telling me to keep chipping away that our lives are worth more together than apart.im the best thing to ever happen to her daughter. Easy to say that when you're on the outside looking in.youre right it takes work to water your own grass when it looks green on the other side of the fence. It not hard to pull the hose out and set up the sprinkler and water your own grass. Remember everyone has flaws everyone is different but flawed.
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Kalmarjan
Intuition77,

No offense taken. You are pretty close to a description of me as a WS. The only missing part is that for years and years, I didn't look deeply into myself and have that sense of self, because I was too busy doing whatever I could to make my wife happy. So "everything" could be alright.

As I did my self reflection, it turned out that almost all of my relationships with women followed this pattern. I wasn't aware of my needs, much less taking care of them. Certainly not voicing them. Because I didn't know how.

Yes, I have addictive behavior, and I still struggle with making my needs known.

As for your description of the BS, parts fit my wife. My wife isn't great at expressing emotion, nor getting things done either.

Yes, I'm a talker, and I don't get things done either. Lol. It's not from a lack of starting them, I just get bored and off to the new one! that's my personality though. It's quite common for people to be like me, it's just how we roll, I guess.

Otherwise great insights. When I did my self reflection I came up to the wall of what my old habits were. Obviously it didn't work out for me in the past, so began the new transformation.

Today I am better at expressing myself. I think it's critical. That is expressing myself without starting world war three. It's harder of course because of the feelings on both sides from this affairafbut we can honestly say that we are closer now.
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Intuition77
Kalmarjan wrote:

The only missing part is that for years and years, I didn't look deeply into myself and have that sense of self, because I was too busy doing whatever I could to make my wife happy. So "everything" could be alright.

As I did my self reflection, it turned out that almost all of my relationships with women followed this pattern. I wasn't aware of my needs, much less taking care of them. Certainly not voicing them. Because I didn't know how.



For me this is lumped into looking for happiness outside themselves and that sense of entitlement it triggers (which creates an immediate negative connection I know so hear me Out first) when I read your above I can still pick up a little justifying. I was just so busy doing for my wife and just didn't know how to have my own needs met. This I think is a mindset that triggers the nice guy version of entitlement. These aren't people with a straight out opinion of you know what I deserve to have sex with someone else.

They've been "nice", in their minds it's I did this and this and always do this for my spouse and yet I don't feel
Happy or fulfilled so I can justify this because I deserve to be happy and this will make me happy. The problem
Is their expectation that their spouse was supposed I mKe them feel happy or fulfilled. They refused to take on responsibility for that themselves. And I'm sorry but (as I giver and caretaker and people pleaser myself I can say this from experience) people benefit from doing for others and trying to make others happy. That's why we do it. Not because we're just aw shucks swell "nice" people. For me
Pleasing everyone else was yes something I learned but I got a payoff from
It too-if I focused on everyone else and their problems and being everything for them I didn't have to look inside and deal
With my own issues.

So while I see your anger in a statement like I was so busy trying to make my wife happy, your kind of using it as a crutch to still avoid some responsibility. You chose to do that most likely because you got something out of it-maybe it helped you avoid some of your own fears, maybe it helped you blame her instead of yourself-if I'm doing all this to make her happy then my intentions are good so when I don't get what I wanted I can say the world is unjust and this is her fault.


For the doer/talker thing, there's a difference I think. And it can be subtle. Lots of people start projects don't finish or procrastinate. I do sometimes myself. But if my husband ever said to me hey remember the bathroom project we're you going to
Finish that I would easily respond genuinely-yes I'm finishing next week but god I really don't even want to. But then I actually did what I said I was going to do. Or more then once I picked up a hobby and then lost interest-are you ever going to finish the scarf you stated with that yarn you bought? Let me donate the yarn cause you know what I don't think I ever will. And then I actually did what I said I was going to do. I was showing I could be trusted because I did what I said I was going to do. I honored my word to him and to myself.

Where the WS seems to avoid owning this about themselves. It's more shame about their real or perceived flaws. I don't think it's awful to have big dreams or talk
About them. I don't think it's awful to not always be able to follow through. But for me it is now a major major red flag when someone constantly SAYS what their going to or want to do and then doesn't actually DO it. If they don't honor their word-something's wrong. Their not hot keying it for themselves so how can they honor me? Or can't own their own failure to
Follow through, because then their still fighting to avoid their own issues. It just shows to me they have a definite disconnect between either fantasy and reality or what they want and the responsibility to get there for themselves or respecting their own integrity.

Even in small doses I know why I had problems with this behavior. It's not trustworthy. It's leaving the load on your spouse all the time. Even I'll cut the grass tomorrow. I'll paint the garage tomorrow. I was going to go to the kids NEXT game. Over and over. They seem
Small. But their avoiding direction
They're avoiding doing what you say. It's an easy excusable way to not
Honor your word or commitments. And it is selfish. We don't say hey I promise I'll come to the next game for the kids sake-we
Do it for our own guilt. And then when next time rolls around we know rather then actually DO what I promised I can
Make more empty promises and excuses and avoid it. Theyre avoiding being dependable for their family or spouse. It's like saying my family is my number one priority-while cheating lying and skipping family moments to meet date or talk On the phone with an AP. It's all just lip service and excuses. The real Priority is in the ACTIONS. In the level of desire to honor your own word and commitments.

Again the wS seems to turn towards anger to justify not dealing with this. They see this as an issue that makes them "bad". So they get angry and try to blame it elsewhere. Where others would say wow your right I wasn't doing what I said or making you a priority, let me Deal with that WS seem more inclined to just make excuses and avoid this.

Another realization came for me During a fight after dday. I was angry (understatement) & said something mean. The minute it left my mouth without even having to consider it I said "no. That's actually a complete
Lie. I said that to be mean and hurt you"

Never. Never in our entire marriage or this entire situation has my WS ever actually said "I lied about this or that" there's always a but or an excuse. Caught in so many lies yet never uttered the phrase I lied. That's weird. That's a definite difference between reality and his perception of himself. Caught in a blatant lie-I didn't want to hurt you. I only said that because you said this. When hes caught he may say ok it was actually 3 months ago not 6. But never once would He say yes I lied. Or that's actually a lie Heres the truth. I think this is a weird flag that shows when Someone truly takes no personal responsibility. There's always an excuse for why they had to lie-never just outward owning I told a lie because I benefitted from it personally. They may lie about tiny things. I didn't accidentally break your favorite plate I don't
Know how that happened. But there's big issues behind why they do what they do.

Sorry kal kind of went off topic-that wasn't all directed at you/your situation!
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SuzieQ
Oh man Intuition77, you sound like you know my WH. Crap. I've never thought about it that clearly before. Not good. :-(

Just the other day I was checking his email and saw he made a $100+ purchase on handlebars for a motorcycle. We are behind on bills since he's had to move out. Our agreement was we wouldn't spend extra money until everything was caught up and then we'd have an allotted amount each week for ourselves. He didn't tell me about the purchase. I even tried initiating a conversation about the motorcycle because I was so sure it had just slipped his mind, and he would tell me. He didn't. Eventually he said, "The seat is ugly and I'm going to try to make a new one and I'm going to get handlebars." Then I asked, "You're going to? Or you already did?" At which point he got very angry and said that wasn't a lie because they hadn't arrived yet. He was going to get them, but he hadn't yet...even though they were already purchased. I tried to show him how that felt like lying to me. Why didn't he just say he already bought them? Then he changed track saying I was trying to trap him, the conversation had been a trap. But if you can't connect with me and be forthcoming about something as small as this, how can I believe you'd be forthcoming with info about seeing or talking to your AP?!!! Then he tried saying it was because I didn't ask a direct question...if I had asked, "Dis you but handlebars?" he would have said yes. So then I tried to explain that doesn't feel good either - like if I don't ask the right question, I won't get the truth. That puts it on me. But he's also said before it's uncomfortable that he feels like I interrogate him. So if I don't ask a direct question I won't et the info I want, BUT ALSO don't interrogate him. Ok...? Then he also said he wasn't hiding it, he just didn't think to tell me. Like he never thought should I tell her or not, and decided not to...he never even thought about it.

It was all so disheartening for me. It reminded me why we are separated and showed me we should probably stay that way for a while longer still. If there's any hope at all. I'm not convinced there is.
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Intuition77
Yes dont allow him to make you take on his burdens. It was a lie. A lie of omission is still a lie. This is entrenched deep in my WS as well I think it's a lifelong way of escaping shame and avoiding responsibility. Which I admit I don't really understand. For myself it seems very obvious if I'm
Going to feel shame or badly for doing something I don't do it. Or if I screw up and do it I admit it and make amends. Their thinking seems to skip over this and goes straight to I will do what I want then feel shame then lie to avoid shame then blame others for my shame. It's crazy making. I learned (hard and the long way) to just tell myself not my monkeys not my circus. They do this to themselves. They'll
Never change because we want expect or try to do it for them. They have to want to and work at it.

We are in very similar situations including financially and I discovered my WS took out loans and just "didn't tell me" even though financially they affect me. And yes when I asked he lied by avoidance. Then when caught he turned it on me accusing him and he just didn't think to tell me. I'm sorry but no that's Just bull. 16 years and we never made even a minor purchase without at least informing the other let alone huge financial choices. He was ashamed. He hid it. He lied. And he knew he was doing it. The blame and excuses is to avoid his own responsibility. And yes his loan was for his own selfish reasons not family finances or the kids. Of course. This seems to be similar too once they start down the selfish rabbit hole they seem to just keep spinning downwards until they choose to stop it. It's scary because it's suddenly the person who was on the same
Page as you
Concerning family and marriage now operates under a whole new game plan and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I would swear my husband completely forgot our entire life together. He forgot how to be a father. He forgot how to take care of his kids. He forgot what a family needs and what financial matters concern. I don't think WS realize the massive change they go through and how scary it is to see from the unchanged BS position. We're just over here like normal day to day of how ever many years and their acting crazy. It's like a stranger coming home wearing your spouses clothes. The fear it invokes is some thing i don't think wS get at all. It's actually terrifying to go through. You spend years with another person and your sense of direction becomes linked to them. You feel adrift with no sense of direction because of the massive and usually sudden changes. Id be nice if they could all experience what it's like to be going about your life as normal and suddenly the rug gets pulled out everything changes and their spouse is wholly different. Obviously things change for them too but they don't seem to experience it fully, like they're separate from it happening. Like their denials and avoidance keep them
Protected from
It and we don't have the same luxury. It's truly the strangest thing I've seen.

Sorry your going through this too. The only thing I can say is don't let him suck you into the crazy. Sometimes it helps to step back and look at it as if your grown child or your best friend was describing this situation what would your view be. Because I think we get accustomed to their twisting things back on us and we can start to believe in blaming ourselves. When you view it happening to someone else it's so much more apparent how wrong the situation is.

It's scary because they may continue to do things that damage the marriage but they have to choose to stop. If you focus on you being ok with or without the marriage it gives you a healthier outlook. Because their choices and actions are on them and I honestly believe now after going through it that trying to fix or continuing to give and give actually leads them to pull away more and seem to care less.
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surviving
SuzieQ - I was wondering if you are being too available to your WS.  I may be jumping the gun here, but if we were separated physically, I wouldn't contact him.  If he wanted to contact me, that would be his choice.  I don't like being available all the time for someone that could care less about me.  If he cared, he wouldn't have cheated for 35 years.  We just had this discussion today.  I wonder why he married me when he didn't want me, he wanted a bunch of whores.  Lately, I have let him come to me - I am not going to him.  He dug himself into a pit, let him figure out how to climb out.

That made so much more sense in my head - I hope it makes some sense to you.
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Kalmarjan
The avoidance behavior, the sweeping things under the rug are hallmarks of a "nice guy" syndrome. If everything has the appearance of being perfect it will be. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

By your man saying that you are trying to trap you in conversation is straight out bullsh*t. Période.

If the question was never directly asked, he would not have volunteered the information. Call a spade what it is, a spade.

I used to engage in this same behavior. Today I take great pains to be honest. It's just so much easier to be, even if it involves uncomfortable conversations..

Unfortunately I had to get into this mess to finally look at myself and make that change. Unfortunately I am reading that not a lot of WS make the effort to do that self examination.
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Intuition77
Kalmarjan wrote:
The avoidance behavior, the sweeping things under the rug are hallmarks of a "nice guy" syndrome. If everything has the appearance of being perfect it will be. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

By your man saying that you are trying to trap you in conversation is straight out bullsh*t. Période.

If the question was never directly asked, he would not have volunteered the information. Call a spade what it is, a spade.

I used to engage in this same behavior. Today I take great pains to be honest. It's just so much easier to be, even if it involves uncomfortable conversations..

Unfortunately I had to get into this mess to finally look at myself and make that change. Unfortunately I am reading that not a lot of WS make the effort to do that self examination.


Kal maybe you can give some
Insight here. Looking back was it almost like you we're in another world separated from Reality or what? I just had a dose of this this week. Last year during his affair our kids each had some health issues. One was more typical kids issue and one was a bit more concerning & needed medication for a time. Nothing huge thank god. He knew obviously as I was worried and stressed and dealing with it all and many appointments (which he couldn't attend because of extra "work" yep. That is super painful. Our kids medical appts! We're missed for the whore!) constantly talking about it and doing the "good wife" part by handling it all and keeping him informed. We talked about this stuff. He actually was involved in the discussions and participated. I know this. I remember this.

So shortly after separating these issues finally cleared up completely. At that time I was still begging for our family and the kids especially and was keeping him informed of anything concerning them (too much so to be honest he wasn't concerned and never asked about them sadly)

So this week he out of the blue starts asking questions about the kids. Including these health issues. Mind boggling he seems to remember nothing from last year or after we separated when we discussed these things. Like our one kid was on medication and he asked if she was still on it and I was flabbergasted and like um no remember in DECEMBER when I told you she didn't have to take it anymore??? Like what the h$ll! That was 8 months ago! The other child he was actually AT that dr with me concerning the timeline last year and yet now is like what ever happened with that??? I was actually shocked by this when I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore.

How do you not remember the life you we're living. And it hurt me deeply because I thought wow he really just didn't care about the kids when I was trying to keep him informed and hoping he would stay involved with them. I had assumed his disinterest was to hurt me or he was just so ashamed but I'm now just like wow you really we're that selfish that you didn't care to even retain this info about your kids health when I was giving it to you.

This is what I mean this is just scary to see. So kal I know you stayed involved in your child's life after dday but any insight here? I'm at a loss how one lives fully disconnected from reality and then seems to think No big deal I suddenly want to check back into it for a short visit. And of course this conversation ended badly when I expressed that he was told all this information & then I couldn't under stand why he was suddenly asking. He went victim mode and he was trying to be their dad again by asking 2 whole questions. And honestly didn't seem to know what to do with the info I gave him-no follow up questions or comments just oh ok. Still very detached from anything concerning them. Like he is not their father. It is bizarre.
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Kalmarjan
I'm not sure...

I always stayed constant in my son's life. He was even more important to me than my AP. I think it's because I went through two divorces as a kid, and the second ended up where my step father committed suicide.

As for my wife, I was always connected to how she was doing, even if I didn't let on. I tried not to let things bother me, but they did. My AP did her best to make me forget about her, but that of course backfired because it put my back up.

On the other hand, other things I did that I didn't think twice about still makes my wife shake her head. Like the "ease" and frequency of lying about the affair when I was in it.

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Graceandhope
I think they disassociate . All thru last year he would think he told me things and he hadn't . The at one point we dropped the kids at a sitter so we could go figure out what was going on with us(this was before I knew what was going on just that something was wrong) then we had spent much of last summer discussing pros/cons relating to the kids school. None of these things he remembers.

That or maybe the guilt had him distracted. He made a comment along those lines today. That he had withdrawn, then he was in the affair , as that progressed the time with us was impossible, the guilt and anxiety of his choices were too much so he was "here" even less both literally and figuratively .

He was still involved with sports and day to day that seemingly didn't involve too much.
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