Brandi
I found out about my ws affair in bits and pieces. First I found out he sent her flowers, then a note she wrote him then naked pictures. Each time I was told it was a flirty text message exchange and he had never been alone with her. We are eight weeks past d-day (of finding the pictures) and I just found phone records where he talked to her for 3 hours the day after I asked him to leave. Which was 2 weeks after he told me he had ended it with her. Then when I asked him about it-he told me he must have pocked dialed her. Days ago he said there was nothing to tell that it wasnt a relationship and he felt nothing but guilt with her. In the ten years I have known him we have NEVER talked for 3 hours about anything. On the phone or in person. His normal calls are 5 minutes tops. If that. So he is still lying to me. That is his first response to lie. I dont know where to go from here. He has a counselor as do I but we havent started marriage counseling yet as both of our therapists wanted to wait until we were at a better place before adding to it. But that journey has just started-we are both 1 session in. He says tonight he will tell me everything-I dont know how to tell if anything is the truth anymore. I am at a loss for what to do.
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flight
What happened in your conversation? He will probably go back and forth for a while. When you asked him to leave, who could he turn to for comfort? Yep, her. So that is to be expected. How are you doing?
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Brandi
What happened in my conversation? Here is our timeline. I found out about flowers August 21 and he said he ended it with her. I found out it was a sexual affair Sept 7th. He said he called her that day to warn her I found her naked pictures. Then after allowing him to come back into our home and into my life and deciding to work on our marriage, I find out he didnt actually end things with her until he was safely back in the home. (it ended 9/21) even though we had been working on things for 2 weeks at that point. He once again said he had no intention of telling me had I not found out. Then he spent 45 mins breaking up with her and the next day she text him 4 times (and he replied) and when I ask him about any of their conversations all i get is, "i dont remember"
He feels I should just make the choice to move on. Say he made a mistake and that instead of focusing on the past I should focus on the future. I wish I could but all i can see is the two of them in bed. Having intimate conversations. He doesnt remember any detail so I am left to guess. And a 3 hour call for a girl that meant nothing to him doesnt add up.
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Kalmarjan
Ah, good old logic. Wonderful.

What would happen if confronted with a choice with someone else? He "made a mistake" but doesn't leave you with the feeling like he chose you, just that he chose wrong. Logic is a wonderful thing...

You should just get over the past? Interesting logic there. Perhaps he can demonstrate that he has too? How does a 3 hour call to break things off, flowers, lying by omission, indicate that he is leaving thing in the past? At least he could be consistent with his demands.

You are not dwelling on the past; you are looking to the future. He has broken your trust, so logic dictates that he needs to buck up, stop acting like a child, sulking in the corner, be a freaking man and do what he should have done... Take care of what he threw away do callously.

Of course, logic dictates you should just give up, at least his does. Logic dictates that a past behaviour that is relevant will dictate a future behaviour. So, he hasn't owned up to his behavior (as he is classifying it as a "mistake") therefore, to use the logic he so loves, he is guaranteeing you that he will do it again, if he won't get caught. (because logically he has already lied by omission and didn't come come clean until presented with the facts.)

How does that little bit of logic nugget settle for him?

Listen, you can control the shots here too. It's both of your relationship. If you don't feel comfortable, tell that asshat he needs to buck up, drop the freaking attitude, be a man, and fix his sh*t. Period. Stop. Acting like a child, as it were. Boo hoo... You made a mistake? Bull. You got caught. That's the "mistake" he made. Not that he desperately wants to fix what he broke, then threw away.

Jeez...
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Brandi
Is now the time to say that he has always had inapropriate relationships with women? Even before we were married there were texts/emails/social media conversations that I would question him about. NOW (of course now) he sees how it is disrespectful to me but he has always liked the attention of women. Everytime I try to talk to him about how I feel he flips it around on me and it turns into how he felt or how I am wrong or something is wrong with me. I tried to get him to empathize with how I felt and he said, "how do you think i felt knowing I wasnt making you happy?" Then that turned into how I needed to get the kids on a better schedule and go to the gym. Needless to say-he is narcissistic and is very good at narcissitic abuse. I am very good at justifying it and accepting it-and believing it. I believe all the lies. Or did. Now I know its all bull. But he is very convincing.
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Brandi
Hey Kalmarjan- you have stated you are a reformed ws so let me ask you a question. Do you remember details of your affair? I dont mean down to what you were wearing or what you had for lunch (if you had meals together) but generalizations? I have asked for the tone of their conversations and he told me work, speakers and our daughters four wheeler. He said he had to drink before going to visit her at lunchtime and yet still went. He said he had performance issues yet still did intimate sex acts with her. And now I'm getting questions about why I delete text/communications from my phone.
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Kalmarjan
You mean about how I carried on the affair, or how I felt?

Sure, I remember it all. I never told my wife things like you are being told. I mean, you're not the only one on this board to be told so.

It seems like it's either an epidemic of men who can't perform because they really don't like what they do (yet find themselves doing it over and over) OR, someone's telling you what they think yoy want to hear.
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Brandi
I mean both. He has answsered all the main questions all that is left is the relationship. You dont talk for 3 hours on the phone or spend 45 mins breaking up with someone you have no feelings for. And the day after he broke up with her she still text him. He did block her after that but he 'doesnt remember' what she said. Never remembers and he says because it wasnt important to him. This woman who can wreck my life and the lives of my children isnt important enough for you to remember what you talked about but shes important enough for you to screw?! I call bs. Plus he lies about everything so again I throw my big ole bs flag
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Kalmarjan
Yeah, again... not sure about the whole situation, but it's like a bad script. Everyone wrote it, and it's kind of boring. 

I just started being honest. I remember every conversation I ever had with my AP. Every one of them. I told my wife about everything. The reason? I didn't want to give the impression that I was ambivilent. Bottom line, if he can't recall (which is really just a way to minimize the culpability of his actions) then why is he in this in the first place. 

I'm sure that he would prefer it to just go away?

In my case, the reason there is so much shame is because I realized that all the conversations, the "sharing" back and forth, were not grounded in reality, so now I have someone else out there that knows how I feel deep down, when honestly the only person who should be on that level is my wife. 


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foreverloved
Personally, I would like to know everything my WH shared with his AP about us.  Because of course, he did not really talk to me about us but he did her.  So why can't he share with me what he shared with her...but really, I don't want to know what he told her because then I will worry and fret over what was said.  How he portrayed me.  I'm not the person I once was. I am forever changed, so the AP can think and say whatever she wants to about my life, my marriage, but it will be lies, because his story to her was shaded.  He was and has admitted to being manipulated by her.  So i'm sure she feed him stories or made him believe things about us that were in fact not actually true.  But it made her look better in his eyes for the moment.  I wish that this would have never happened, but it did and there is nothing I can do to change what has happened. I can only control and change what I do from here.  My WH has begun to open up and communicate and be truly honest with me about the A, this has taken time...more time than what I would have liked, but it is what it is.  He has lied more through the A to me about stupid stuff that I already knew the answer to..but he had his head too far up his rearend to realize I knew.  So I stopped asking questions because it only made me angry.  I stepped back and continued to move forward with my life while he figured out his.  He is being honest with me now and communicating with me about little things.  Maybe step back and stop asking questions and give him space to open up and talk to you when he is ready.  Its hard...so hard. I like asking questions...esp WHY!! and I like to get honest answers.  I'm not saying wait forever. Continue working on you and doing what you feel like you need and have to do for the relationship and what you can live with.  Hope this makes sense....we are almost 10 months past dday...he didn't start being honest until about 6 weeks ago.  He answered questions before but some where half truths and some were lies.
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Kalmarjan

foreverloved wrote:
Personally, I would like to know everything my WH shared with his AP about us.  Because of course, he did not really talk to me about us but he did her.  So why can't he share with me what he shared with her...but really, I don't want to know what he told her because then I will worry and fret over what was said.  How he portrayed me.  I'm not the person I once was. I am forever changed, so the AP can think and say whatever she wants to about my life, my marriage, but it will be lies, because his story to her was shaded.  He was and has admitted to being manipulated by her.  So i'm sure she feed him stories or made him believe things about us that were in fact not actually true.  But it made her look better in his eyes for the moment.  I wish that this would have never happened, but it did and there is nothing I can do to change what has happened. I can only control and change what I do from here.  My WH has begun to open up and communicate and be truly honest with me about the A, this has taken time...more time than what I would have liked, but it is what it is.  He has lied more through the A to me about stupid stuff that I already knew the answer to..but he had his head too far up his rearend to realize I knew.  So I stopped asking questions because it only made me angry.  I stepped back and continued to move forward with my life while he figured out his.  He is being honest with me now and communicating with me about little things.  Maybe step back and stop asking questions and give him space to open up and talk to you when he is ready.  Its hard...so hard. I like asking questions...esp WHY!! and I like to get honest answers.  I'm not saying wait forever. Continue working on you and doing what you feel like you need and have to do for the relationship and what you can live with.  Hope this makes sense....we are almost 10 months past dday...he didn't start being honest until about 6 weeks ago.  He answered questions before but some where half truths and some were lies.


This right here, spot on. 

I can answer the whole "why did we tell the AP and not our Spouse" question from my own experience...

It was easier to talk to the AP, because the stage was set for it to be easier. It's like being able to confide in someone that you have no real repercussions for. It's being dishonest, really. Instead of having that sh-tty conversation with who matters, (your spouse) the AP makes it so you feel safe, like they "get you." 

In my case, the things taht I told my AP came to bite me in the ass later, but I digress. The problem with this is that you start to develop feelings for this person. This is literally the beginning of the affair fog. 

If you think on it, it's just like when you started going out with your spouse. Things clicked. There came a time when you knew he/she was "the one" because of all things that seemed to click. 

The same thing happens with that AP, but it's based off of a one-sided give and take. In my case my AP didn't really give too much information or backstory, but it didn't matter because I was too busy giving mine to her. It was as if she was enthralled with everything about me, what I wanted... and she gave those things to me, if only for a while. 


Now, I can call this manipulation, like I was duped. But that's bull. The truth is, I let myself be duped. I wanted to believe it. I was in control of my actions... they may have happened really, really fast for me, but in the end it WAS my decision to go there. The thing is, when we are talking about the "fog" we are not trying to minimize things, or give an excuse, we are trying to explain why it is that we came to make a decision that, looking back, is sooooo stupid. 

The WHY may be important to begin with. I think it's like a holy grail though. It's as if a BS figures once they know about why it happened, things will get back on track. WHY is good to know if you can then turn and say, okay, that's WHY we got there, now HOW do we proceed?

One thing I have learned is that if the relationship is based off of anything besides absolute TRUTH in this repair stage, you're doomed. It's just impossible. That means from BOTH sides. 

If there is any ambiguity, then it needs to be outed. Talked about. Yes, the discussions are going to suck. How could they not? We are talking betrayal. But it's looking to what the GOOD questions at this moment are. 

It's not necessarily WHY??? that matters here, but WHAT NOW? How do we proceed? Is there hope here? WHAT do you (and I mean each other...) NEED? 

One common theme from most stories that I have read is that somewhere along the relationship, for some reason or another, that line of communications was lost. I have said it before... WHO cares who is right? I mean, we can just all go out on a limb to say that the WS was WRONG in this situation to choose what they did. 

KEY WORD: CHOSE. 

So, we all agree with that. Now it's time to talk about WHAT NOW? 

Brandi... so what I am getting at with all this...

In your case your husband is trying to minimize everything. He is trying to sweep it under the rug, saying - let's not dwell on the past. 

Okay. So, lets pretend that's possible. It is - but maybe not right this second. 

So, the question is, what would make that possible?

Like, if you were to do what your husband wanted, to basically forget all this and "move on," then what do you need for that to happen?

What my  wife needed.. she told me that she was taking a HUGE risk. She needed to know that I would never do this again. How would or could she be reasonably sure that in 6 months, I wouldn't see another woman and go and try to have sex with her. So, here is what I had to do.

I had to work on myself. I could just say the words... "I'll NEVER do that again." But, I knew that wouldn't be enough.

You know, one thing I'm not sure that I conveyed here... my wife is a firecracker. She's Italian. LOL Nice generalization there... but it's what she says. It used to be me, the one who would leave to "cool down" in a fight. I stopped doing that a few years ago because I stopped smoking. So, the fights would escalate. I mean, sometimes she got physical, throwing things... I'm not wired that way, so it would be one of those things that the fight would never resolve... I would just shut down because I didn't want to get into that and perhaps have my son see that, or worse have something happen (like one time she threw a toy car and broke our T.V.) 

Thing is, with all this, one thing she consciously changed was the time it took her to process information. I mean, she literally changed that by hearing the information, and then dweling on it until she came to a consensus. What a change! 

It allowed us to actually talk to each other, and it's different now, because I can say things to her that I wasn't able to say before, and she can hear things that I was too afraid to say before. Plus, with the change we both did there, more stuff gets resolved because we actually get it out in the open. 

My point here is that since you have been going about this in the way you have, if it's not working, perhaps changing your approach will work? For example, if you tell your husband, "Look, I have to process this sh*t, and I'll get back to you.." and then you think on it...

Perhaps you will be able to put it past you. Get over it, so to speak. That's what he wants, right? So, what are the things that have to happen in order for you to do that? Do you need a truth session? All of his passwords? Perhaps you just need him to come clean, once and for all about why he did what he did. Like, no bull, just like what happened. Perhaps you need to tell him that in order for you to move on, HE will need to be sure that it will NEVER happen again. I'm NOT talking avoidance, I'm talking where I am.... 

I will NEVER hurt my partner that way again. I literally turned her life upside down with my actions, and my careless thoughts. I was selfish, and instead of protecting the one thing that I should have, I carelessly tossed it away and allowed myself to be enamored with my OWN story that I concocted about a GIRL I worked with, and to be honest... I WANTED to sleep with. (I mean, strip away all bull, and that is what you are left with, right? There is no blame shifting there, no minimization, or excuses there...) 

Why will I never do that again? Because I could never put her through that again. I love my wife, and it took almost losing her to realize what I almost threw away. I will NEVER do that again, becuase I am truly NOT that guy. Put me in the exact same situation.. Hell, put me in a situation where I KNOW I would never get caught... and I won't do it? Why? 

Because I wouldn't be okay with it. I could not look at myself and say, "Self! You did a good job there." Because I would not want to hurt my wife again. I don't want my child uncontrollably crying in his class because he doesn't understand why Daddy moved out, and is now with this weird woman that is trying to replace him with her. I don't want to lose my true soulmate, the one woman who all of my friends REFUSE to let play a game together because we are so well aligned that it's just not fair. (I'm talking things like charades, Cranium, etc.) 

You know, 30 minutes ago, I asked my wife. "Would you consider our relationship better, worse, or the same as before."

She answered, "It's definitely different. But it's way better than before."

Truth, from both sides. Communication. Honest communication. I.E. you may need to say to him, Okay, that works for you. It's not going to work for me. Here's why. How do we proceed from here. 

One last thing. If you continue on this path to try and restart (because you can't save something that is already broken) your marriage, remember two words:

Curiosity, and Truth. 

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SunnyDownSouth
I guess I'm in the same boat as far as that the lies won't stop to a point.  Maybe a man that has been there could shed some light.  My husband came clean in the beginning but then changed his story and said he just lied about the whole thing.  He says they are just friends and the daily communication has now gone to sometimes once a week or once every 2 weeks.  Not sure how many times he's seeing her in there but can't be that many times.  He's trying to act as if nothing ever happened and I'm trying not to throw it in his face.  However, I do know from phone records that he does still talk to her occasionally but he lies and says he doesn't know when he last talked to her.  Should I still be worried or is maybe the spark lost it's fire??  I'm hoping she has a boyfriend but I don't know.  We have been married 25 years with 4 children.  
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Kalmarjan
Boundaries.

This is a huge lack of boundaries. In a healthy recovery, there needs to be boundaries. Let me be clear. I will not go back to my AP, no way, no how.

With that said, it is very clear, from communication between my wife and I, that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE to be in ANY form of contact with my AP, period.

No matter if 20 years pass, whatever. NO CONTACT.

If that is what will make you feel safer, and make it so you can continue to heal, then set that boundary and follow up relentlessly.

If your husband is any kind of a man, make I'm understand this is non negotiable. It is what is needed for you two to move forward. If he is willing to act with integrity, he will respect your boundaries.

This is why I think it's so important to work on yourself first. The WS doesn't call all the shots here. You get a say too.

Don't hope she has a boyfriend, take control. Set that boundary, and the consequences of breaking it. And stick to it.
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Brandi
Sunnydownsouth...we JUST had baby 3. Like he is 6 months old. (3 when it happened) so I feel your pain. However, unlike you I went postal and threw it in his face daily. Hourly. I needed him to know my pain. Although I dont think he will ever fully get it I felt like he needed..something. Here I was with our 3 kids unable to go out or leave the house or have any adult interaction and there he was having an affair. So I get it. Prior to it all I was a doormat; I let him dictate every aspect of our relationship. I didnt want to nag or be a b*tch. Well that ship has sailed. I now stand firm in everything. He has no contact with his ap, he tells me his lunch time whereabouts, I can check his phone/social media/etc and he knows if he lies to me I will find out. And there will be actions taken for those lies. He knows I am not joking around. The way I see it-whats the worst that can happen? It has ALREADY happened. He broke your trust, your marriage and your heart. Stand firm in your boundries. Also, get the book "the new rules of marriage" that dumb thing has changed my life and I'm only 84 pages into it.
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