Scarlett Show full post »
awaggoner1999
The onus of cheating is strictly on the WS.  Cheating is the effect of the marital breakdown. (cause)  
Contributions to the Marital breakdown: poor communication, insecurity, immaturity, narcissism, and on and on...
if both partners were giving 100 equally then there would be no cheating...but as probably has happened, as in many of our cases, some were giving more than 100 and the other partner was taking the excesses without  any reciprocity.

I own nothing of the cheating, but if problems existed in the marriage, I was more than willing to address them. However, I lived with a man that thought the repetitious nature of the problems was too much work, and seemed to require extra effort to address the issues and to potentially come to some sort of an agreement about many of them. Many issues were ignored, debunked, dismissed, or ridiculed. My WS not only had an affair but was also quite  active in his participation on Ashley Madison...not my fault...

The betrayal, the lies, the cheating, the blaming and the deflecting- were not caused by me...they were decisions and or responses ,my WS decided  to do versus counseling, talking, honesty, and openness...

His Needs Her Needs is a great tool...I read it back in 2002 and attempted to share it with my spouse. I did the work necessary to attempt to affair proof my marriage, however, I can not fix a person that is broken...I cannot own his brokenness...I was willing at every turn to meet the shortcomings of our marriage...and alas, the perceived work of a marriage- our marriage- was just to burdensome for my WS. I lead him to the water, but I was unable to make him drink or even assist him with the drinking.

As others have stated, we both were in a broken marriage, but only one of us was willing to pursue options that would severely and negatively impact the other partner - should they find out. Then they would  flip the script and say if you had been X, then my Y wouldn't have happened. Well, why didn't I have a Y or a Z? Because I didn't find my vows to be readily disposable.
And that is the other part of this dilemma...I meant my vows...and I believed in for better or worse...and regularly aspired to a new day every day.

I will not own another person's inability or unwillingness to repair their own issues...and then allow them to blame me for them. If you are broken or want for something, communicate it, don't cheat and then blame me. Give me a break.
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foreverloved

I'm a BS....and I will be the first to admit. My WS did try to communicate problems in our marriage to me, but I would not listen to him.  But he choose terrible timing, in the heat of the moment, to point something out...which once I am HOT. I'm HOT and do not listen to what someone else is saying until I am finished with my part, so I never heard him.  Does that make it ok or give him the right to go and cheat no.  That was his choice. period. Did I push him away and into another's arms? Maybe so in his eyes...but that doesn't make it right.  We were not good communicators, but this is something that we are improving upon.  

Basically what I am saying is that the BS could have help make the circumstances leading up to the affair "right" in the WS eyes to do what they did. Does that make it excusable or ok...absolutely not.  But we are both parties in this relationship, and were we really doing all that we could do to be the best spouse or person....I know personally, I was very selfish and only concerned about me and didn't really seek to meet my husbands needs.  But that still doesn't make it right.  It takes 2 to tango.  It's a breakdown in something in your marriage that lead the WS to go elsewhere.  It could be something of their own doing or something that the two people in the marriage both contributed to or it could be something that the BS did or didn't do in their eyes.  Still doesn't make it right or ok. But in their eyes justified....

Yes, they choose to have an affair and it is not the BS fault, but I think personally we, BS, need to make sure we are taking full ownership of our faults and failures in our marriage, in order to truly protect your marriage from another affair.  that is if both parties truly honestly are committed to making the marriage work, and both are all in to making it work. if it is only one sided...has anything changed? We both have to put in work, hard work, and make changes..possibly huge changes to make things be better and different.

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awaggoner1999
Here, here- Foreverloved. 
I was more than willing at every turn...but WS would not come to table to own their own garbage...I was at the table alone trying to fight a battle for two without him. I would have worked harder if had just communicated or acknowledged his own role in the breakdown...I owned mine and then some...
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Anna26
Scarlett wrote:
With all due respect Anna, did you read the book? It's about affair proofing your marriage and explains very clearly how it happens. In reality most WS's are good people who make bad choices. It's really a very simple concept. Everyone has needs and when those needs are not meant, they may end up being met by someone outside the marriage. Most of the time WS's are not actively searching for an affair. It's something that gradually happens when people start having their needs met by someone in their circles, like a co-worker or friend. I know it's very easy to throw stones and cast blame because you weren't the one to make that decision, but I also never thought I would make that decision either. At some point both spouses are going to have to meet the needs of the other or the marriage will not work out. 



Scarlett:  Yes, I have read the book, thoroughly and understood where it was coming from completely about affair proofing your marriage.  Like Kal says, it is all about communication.
 
You are correct when you say everyone has needs that are sometimes not met in the marriage and I'm well aware of that fact, although I don't believe for a minute that a WS thinks, 'our marriage isn't working, I'm going to find what I need elsewhere.  It can be something that is simply drifted into, especially with work colleagues.  A lot of affairs start by being in the right place at the right time.

But the point I was making is that I don't believe any marriage is perfect, everyone has their flaws and makes mistakes, despite the best communication skills possible. My own husband has poor communication skills, he just can't open up about feelings, no matter how much coaxing I do. Most of the time we can work with this well. The trouble is, outside influences such as family issues can have a big affect on your day to day life to the point that you are simply not coping with everything you have to do. 
How do you affair proof your marriage against that when you know one of you simply bottles things up?   I don't mean,  that the two people in the marriage don't each have a responsibility for what goes on between them,  but I do mean that you can't be responsible for what is going on in someone elses head, especially when they are struggling to understand what is the problem themselves.

It wasn't my intention to ruffle feathers here, it's just that I feel any marriage is susceptible to someone stepping over the line for whatever reason. 

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Kalmarjan
awaggoner1999 wrote:
The onus of cheating is strictly on the WS.  Cheating is the effect of the marital breakdown. (cause)  
Contributions to the Marital breakdown: poor communication, insecurity, immaturity, narcissism, and on and on...
if both partners were giving 100 equally then there would be no cheating...but as probably has happened, as in many of our cases, some were giving more than 100 and the other partner was taking the excesses without  any reciprocity.

I own nothing of the cheating, but if problems existed in the marriage, I was more than willing to address them. However, I lived with a man that thought the repetitious nature of the problems was too much work, and seemed to require extra effort to address the issues and to potentially come to some sort of an agreement about many of them. Many issues were ignored, debunked, dismissed, or ridiculed. My WS not only had an affair but was also quite  active in his participation on Ashley Madison...not my fault...

The betrayal, the lies, the cheating, the blaming and the deflecting- were not caused by me...they were decisions and or responses ,my WS decided  to do versus counseling, talking, honesty, and openness...

His Needs Her Needs is a great tool...I read it back in 2002 and attempted to share it with my spouse. I did the work necessary to attempt to affair proof my marriage, however, I can not fix a person that is broken...I cannot own his brokenness...I was willing at every turn to meet the shortcomings of our marriage...and alas, the perceived work of a marriage- our marriage- was just to burdensome for my WS. I lead him to the water, but I was unable to make him drink or even assist him with the drinking.

As others have stated, we both were in a broken marriage, but only one of us was willing to pursue options that would severely and negatively impact the other partner - should they find out. Then they would  flip the script and say if you had been X, then my Y wouldn't have happened. Well, why didn't I have a Y or a Z? Because I didn't find my vows to be readily disposable.
And that is the other part of this dilemma...I meant my vows...and I believed in for better or worse...and regularly aspired to a new day every day.

I will not own another person's inability or unwillingness to repair their own issues...and then allow them to blame me for them. If you are broken or want for something, communicate it, don't cheat and then blame me. Give me a break.


Well said.

It's a red herring anyway. I mean seriously, it's not hard to understand.

At the end of the day, a WS cheated. Period.

The problem I see time and again, YES its très important to do the soul searching, see why you maybe came to do what you did. Maybe it was X, Y, Z. Maybe the moon moved the right way that day. I mean, honestly, that's about the same thing.

At the end of it all, the WS must OWN their story. There is NO excuse to do what I did period.

No, it was not my AP's fault. No, it was NOT my BS's fault. It wasn't the fault of the Sun, stars, moon, God, Satan, Hitler, Giuseppe, or Pinocchio

It. Was. My. Fault.

Distilled down, I thought I could handle having something in the side, and I thought it would be okay. I admit it.

Yes, I know what got me there, but I'm not shifting that blame. I still made a decision there.

Let's be real for a second here. All the WS out there - this is where I get real. I'm not singling out Scarlett here, but speaking to all WS in general.

You, ultimately had a choice. Yes, or no?

You chose yes

That's on you. Period. Don't like it? Sucks to be you. Bottom line. Now you need to do some work to fix it, or leave it dead in the parking lot and walk away.

Oh, by the way. IF you want to talk about affairs proofing your marriage...

The onus is on YOU to affair proof your marriage, not the other way around. That means now, more than before, you need to affair proof things. Meaning, never be alone with the opposite sex. Period. Why? You can't be trusted, and out of respect for your BS.

No more putting yourself in a situation where you could cheat, period. Why? Because you screwed up. You cheated. You should have affair proofed your marriage, NOT the other way around. You cannot tell me that "if my BS had done this, then I wouldn't have cheated."

Sorry, but you cannot bullsh+t a bulksh+tter. Been there, done that. It's time to lay aside your ego, and decide really quickly if you're in this relationship, and to drop the blame shifting and see what you need to do to fix things.

That means, okay - read the books, and implement the things in there as a gesture if goodwill towards the relationship but do NOT expect anything back.

Do that, and you could say you are giving 200%. Know what? If your relationship is meant to work out, your BS will start to see that you are in it for real and they will reciprocate.
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surviving
Kalmarjan - I don't always agree with you, but this time you really hit it on the head!  Thanks for stating it so eloquently.  I know cheating isn't the answer to any problem.  No matter how bad the marriage is, cheating isn't the answer.  If it was, I would not only be a BS, but a WS.  I did NOT cheat, even though I lived through the same problems that my WS lived through.  He cheated - that was his answer to the problems.  BTW, when he tells me the problems that were in the marriage, he must have been talking about another marriage, it wasn't the one I was living in.  He has admitted that he re-wrote history, and the problems he listed were all made up in his mind.  He wanted to cheat, and he blamed me for his made up problems in our marriage.  At least he admitted that!  That is a first step, I think.  Again, thanks Kalmarjan!
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Anna26
Oh dear, I seem to have opened up a really large can of worms don't I?  And this is a subject we have gone through a lot of times already on different posts.  So let's be clear:

Both spouse are responsible for their marriage, failures, communications, et al... both spouse eventually need to take ownership of whatever might be wrong in that area.
The wayward spouse is the one that chose to step over the line for whatever reason, but I don't believe they are totally responsible for the faults in the marriage before this point.
It doesn't make an affair right, it's also a choice that one spouse has no control over at all.

What I was saying is that I don't believe that there is such a thing as a perfect marriage, and that even if people believed theirs was, would it still truly be 'affair proof'?  What happens when other influences come into the mix, family pressures, depression, bereavements?  What if you thought you had a 'perfect marriage' were great at communication and everything, and then the worst thing happens, the affair...what happens then?  What went wrong? Why wasn't it 'perfect' after all?
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Kalmarjan
Anna, no you didn't open up a can of worms. Lol.

There is no such thing as perfect. Mine certainly isn't perfect, and I've never known anyone to have a perfect marriage.

I'm just referring to the "affair proof" comment. You know what's funny? Listen to an AP or OP talk, and that's one of their first line of defence. "If so and so had took care of business at home, then they wouldn't come looking for me."

Right.

For affair proofing, I think it's integrity that affair proofs your marriage. I know of a guy who has never cheated. Never. And he would never have dinner alone with a member of the opposite sex. He just doesn't find that appropriate. That's an example of affair proofing. Not from his spouses side, HIS side.

That's what I think giving 100% is all about.
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Anna26
Kalmarjan wrote:
Anna, no you didn't open up a can of worms. Lol. There is no such thing as perfect. Mine certainly isn't perfect, and I've never known anyone to have a perfect marriage. I'm just referring to the "affair proof" comment. You know what's funny? Listen to an AP or OP talk, and that's one of their first line of defence. "If so and so had took care of business at home, then they wouldn't come looking for me." Right. For affair proofing, I think it's integrity that affair proofs your marriage. I know of a guy who has never cheated. Never. And he would never have dinner alone with a member of the opposite sex. He just doesn't find that appropriate. That's an example of affair proofing. Not from his spouses side, HIS side. That's what I think giving 100% is all about.



That's another point I was making too, about finding a reason to justify things, and even the WS does that sometimes.  But I do agree that truth and honesty and communication goes a long way to affair proofing a marriage.  But what I wonder about is things like when a person is so overloaded and stressed and really not 'themselves'. When they are not thinking straight.  And like my wayward, tries to solve their problem all on their own, ie, bottling it up, and not communicating.  That's when the risk increases, even in a so called 'perfect' marriage.  And now some bright spark is going to chime in and say, 'well, it can't have been that perfect a marriage can it?'  Lol!!    And that's just what I'm saying...
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Kalmarjan
Absolutely!

If I learned something from all of this, it was to act with integrity. If I have to give up myself to be with someone, then I'm not being honest. To me, the first step of affair proofing on my side is to be honest, sans fault. Not being a dick, but letting my feelings about something be communicated so I don't feel like I have to bottle something up and get all pissy like before the affair.
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TimT
Please note: I deleted the last few posts because they were directed more toward individual conversations (becoming arguments) that probably do not serve the purpose of the forum. I encourage differences of opinion and even helpful debate. You can feel free to express agreement or disagreement about any particular idea, but once you start directing these comments toward each other individually, the rest of us become uncomfortable in the conversation. (I know because other members let me know they feel this way.)

I value the input of all of you. Good stuff here. Keep posting; just keep the bigger picture in mind. We have a lot of people (most of whom never post) coming to read these forums.

THANK YOU!

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Tim2014
Surviving I just saw your post from the other day and yes I agree with you so as it is said if she didn't like the old me or the new me that's what an affair does!!! I'm going back to the simple things in life no longer anyone's doormat im not getting any younger and no one should give up a non destructive passion just because you are married! It just means I'm no longer available to do everyone handy work for them! Like my sisters in laws Xmas wreath and lights just because she does nt want her boyfriend to do it! So will get tim oops he's hunting sorry in the past I was Johnny on the spot now I'm living for me you have to be happy and enjoy life she made choices not me I tried to meet her needs not mine so if that's wrong then I guess it's gods plan for us not to be together
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