KristinG Show full post »

Kristin G, 

You have a very kind heart and clearly feel love and commitment deeply.  They are beautiful qualities.  However, I believe they are leading you astray in this moment. 

Like many others here, I do not believe that someone is the sum and total of their worst mistake and worked to restore my marriage.  Fortunately, I had a very dedicated and repentant WS that made that process possible and worthwhile. 

However, while I do believe that everyone can make huge mistakes that don’t define them - I do think that be willing and able to make that same mistake AGAIN says a LOT about who they are on a deep level.  Mistakes are things you do and realize you won’t ever do again because you dislike the outcome.  Doing it again (continuing to lie, seeing the AP) says you are either compulsive or you LIKE the result. Or both. 

If you spend some time reading here, you will note a common thread among the majority of the WSs that have had just one affair.  They convinced themselves that their secret would stay hidden and if it was revealed that their BS would be hurt but not devastated.  Whether they believe that their BS is not that invested in the marriage anymore or just completely fool themselves about the amount of pain a wound like this causes, it seems that the one-timers universally convince themselves that their spouses, children and family/friends will not be harmed to the extent that they really are.  

So when DD comes and they see their spouse looking and acting like someone they don’t recognize. - raging, wailing, losing weight, unable to sleep or eat - needless to say they are horrified.  The full weight of what they’ve done starts to sink in.  

Here’s when a second layer of character shows up.  In those that are genuinely good people who got lost amid their own needs/wants/fears, weaknesses and inadequacies - this is a shock to the system.  Usually they’ve already been struggling to bury their conscience and this clear vision of the havoc they have wrought on those they love - as well as themselves and who they thought they were - suddenly brings it raging to the surface and EVERYTHING looks different.  

They typically go no contact either immediately or very, very quickly and begin to try to do anything they can to make up for what they’ve done.  They are sickened by what they did and who they became and start actively trying to rebuild THEMSELVES into better people, while simultaneously attempting to help heal their spouse and marriage.   These are the people (in my opinion) that deserve a way home, a chance (if the BS is willing) to rebuild.  

Unfortunately, your WW has failed TWICE (actually more.) First in initiating the affair - and the AGAIN - after she saw the pain it caused you and didn’t stop.  

Her actions are painfully selfish.  Like straight-up next level.  She is still calling on you to care for her, be there for her - yet is prolonging and extending your pain.  

From the outside looking in, you have two choices: 

Decide that you are comfortable with an open marriage (which is what you have now) and act on it.  Start dating and meeting other people that can fill the holes she is leaving in your life.  You may find you meet someone that is more in sync with the life you want to have.  

End the relationship and move on.  Tell her you love her, but you also love yourself and know you deserve the kind of love you really want - exclusive and honest.  And then go no contact for a minimum of a year.  There may come a day when you can be friends.  But that will not be any time soon.  

In addition, I would suggest looking into co-dependency.The boundaries you are exhibiting while loving and kind - aren’t healthy and will leave you open to unhealthy people who will not treat that heart with the right respect.You need to learn better discernment so that your spouse is the kind of person who guards and loves that heart for the jewel it is. That is not, in any way, what is happening here.  

BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
Quote 2 0
Thanks TH, Thrive, and Hurting.  Your advice helped to get me through my weekend.  I have realized over the last year that I definitely have some co-dependency issues but have no clue how or why I have them.  I know it's going to take some real work on my part to detach and become my own person.  I'm by no means successful yet, but I'm trying.  Here is a little recap of the weekend.

Good Monday everyone! So deep breath for the weekend update. It's been eventful.

Friday night I went out with a couple of friends. Went to a bonfire because it's finally starting to feel like fall. Everyone started heading home and it was just my friend and I left sitting around the fire and chatting. She is like a second mom to my ww, but we have been very close for several years. I got a huge bomb drop from her (although I should be surprised at this point) that my ww brought her AP up for a bonfire and to meet everyone last week. She said she just couldn't hold it in and felt like I should know. Said that, while they weren't physical, it was pretty obvious to everyone that they were together. I held my composure and just told her that I know ww is making some poor decisions lately and that I am just trying to do my own thing, get a life, and detach myself unless things change. I teared up once or twice, but all in all kept it together ok.

Got home around 10 and went to bed. I'm sleeping as well as I can these days and the next thing I know ww crawled into bed and gave me a back rub. I woke up and asked what she was doing here (at my house). She said she was wasted and took an uber. Wow, ok. So I told her to drink some water and get some sleep and went back to bed.

Saturday morning was pretty great, almost felt normal. We got up, she made me coffee, played some video games and recovered. Saturday night we had plans to watch our favorite football team GO VOLS. I took stuff to make my famous beef stew over to her house and we had a couple of friends over. The entire game she spent more time with her nose in her cell phone every 2 seconds than watching the game or socializing. This has become a common theme when she is with me. It hurts, but I have at least stopped trying to snoop. I know who she's talking to - snooping does nothing but confirm the hurt and further perpetuate my own masochistic nightmare. As soon as the game was over, I said I was leaving and she acted a bit like a jerk as if she were annoyed with my presence. 180 for me - I didn't try to make her happy by acknowledging and trying to fix her blatant rudeness. I simply got my keys and walked out.

Sunday morning she once again showed up at my house before I was even out of bed. Made me coffee and said she wanted to apologize for being such a turd the night before. I thanked her for the coffee. She stayed for maybe 30 minutes and left.  I ended up having a pretty nice day playing some video games and hanging out with my nephew. He's 6, hysterical, and my best friend.

Hope everyone here had a good weekend. I can't say enough that just being able to journal my feelings and get some feedback is helping my own sanity. I know there will be plenty of hard truths from ya'll as I am no where near perfect in this journey, but I'm trying my very best and learning a lot along the way. Cheers!
Quote 0 0
KristinG, I have a pit in my stomach for you.  Your cheater is DEFINITELY in knock out punch zone, meaning it's not time for niceties and thankses, and joint football game watching and beef stews... it's time to lower the boom.  She is a cake eater and you are holding a plate of cake in one hand and a fork in the other, and smiling (on the outside, crying on the inside) while feeding her bite after bite.  Instead of feeding her cake with that fork, stab her in the eye and tell her to get the f@ck out.  She is now openly clowning you to your own social network while at the same time crawling into bed with you drunk???  Oh, but...apologies... KristenG, APOLOGIES DON'T MEAN SH!T RIGHT HERE.  Words mean nothing...NOTHING!  ACTIONS are all that matter.... ALL that matter...

Thrive was kind to allow for the possibility that your cheater may not be the sum of her worst behavior.  That may indeed be true one day.  But right now your cheater is a turd with stick legs walking around leaving brown stains all over your white living room rug, and rolling around in your bed.  Please, do not let her do this to you.  She has the BALLS to be annoyed with you while she is thumbing through emojis from her home wrecker??

She is not worth your time.  She is not worth a single sliver of that stew beef you lovingly made.  She is not worth sharing your most treasured rituals and loves with.  Please, change the locks on your door and let her know she isn't welcome in your home let alone your bed while she is f@cking someone else and while you are living apart.  She can call and ask permission and you can decide but she is practicing a very sick form of marking her territory in some sick kind of fantasy where she is a dominant entitled being that needs obey no rules or boundaries.  Shut that SH!T down please... 
Quote 2 0
Formerly known as Anthropoidape... male bs, long affair, d-day Feb 2017.
Quote 4 0
I would agree with the others. 

Her showing up like this is not helpful for you trying to detach from her. Which would be ok I suppose if she was actually TRYING to make amends. But she’s not. She’s literally just wanting to have the best of both worlds... the problem is, a MARRIAGE isn’t for someone to crawl back into just when they feel like it. It also isn’t for someone to sleep around on the side. 

Although I can hear that you still love this person (didn’t we all...), and it seems she is the one initiating such unhelpful behaviours, you are allowing her to do so to you. 

My advice to you is to put up your boundaries and make them clear to her. Right now, you seem like you’re in limbo. You are trying to move yourself forward, but you haven’t really put your foot down yet and shown her what is and isn’t acceptable. In a way, you’re letting her continue to mess with your life (by engaging with her when she shows up and ‘having a nice time’). So she, as cheaters do, will push the boundaries. She assumes she can come and go as she pleases. She thinks she can waltz in and out of your life and you will still be there for her. 

Is this acceptable to you? 

I know it’s VERY hard. You want to do things with the person you love. You want to feel wanted by them. You’ve just lost everything... at the hands of the person who swore they would always have your back. 

It’s a HUGE shock to the system... and in the end, how you choose to proceed is going to be up to you. Those of us on here have the great misfortune of having suffered similar situations in the past. The things we say are a reflection of that. Some of us have had WS who continued to actively hurt us in the face of being caught. Sometimes the WS ‘wakes up’ over time. Sometimes they don’t. All of us have had to learn the slow and painful lesson that we cannot control what choices our WS make, no matter how we may want to. The one thing we CAN do, is control our own actions and choices. We cannot make them stop cheating, but we can remove ourselves from a relationship or association with them so that it no longer directly affects us (as much). We can not control where they might go, but we can refuse to engage with them, play house with them while they continue the affair and remove ourselves from their hurtful presence. We can refuse to let them in when they show up if they are still actively engaged in the affair. 
Quote 1 0
Yes, CHANGE THE LOCKS!  ASAP! Do not go to her house, don’t allow her into yours. Remove yourself from the cruel love triangle SHE put you in!  She has all the control, and she knows it. She does what, and who she wants, whenever she wants. Stop allowing her to do that to you. You have to stop the abuse!  
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
Quote 1 0
I think it would be legit to say that she is deliberately screwing with you because it makes her feel good.

If not that, then something so close that the difference doesn't matter. 
Formerly known as Anthropoidape... male bs, long affair, d-day Feb 2017.
Quote 1 0
She has a key?  What the heck?
Quote 0 0
This is an abusive relationship. She is messing with your head and seemingly having a lot of fun with the process. I started a process that was helpful to me and that is stepping outside of myself and viewing my situation as if I were simply my own best friend. What would I tell my best friend if they were in this situation? Give yourself that advice - and follow it. It is from the person that cares about you more than anyone else in the world - yourself. 

If your best friend (besides yourself) was being treated like this, what would you tell her?
If your best friend's spouse did the things your spouse has done, what would you tell her?
If your best friend gave the key to her house to someone that was intentionally mistreating her, what would you tell her?

Think about the situation you just described. 
She went out with "friends", partied hard, and got drunk.
She didn't call you to come out and party. She didn't call you to have fun and celebrate. She called you when she didn't feel good after partying with 'friends'.
You jumped up and ran at her beck and call. You went and got her something to eat and drink and rushed to her side. 
You then kept her warm and comfy in the bed. 

So, she got all the "fun" while you get to come to rescue her after having 'too much fun'. You got her all cleaned up and sober and then you got to go back to your house and wait for the next call to come rescue her. 

That isn't a marriage. She is using you. She knows she can go out and have all the fun, have the time of her life, and then use you as her own personal Uber Eats when she is too tired and hung over to make her own food.

Us betrayed spouses talk about our wondering spouses being "in a fog". However, I think we stay in just as much of a fog. They have an "affair fog" and we have a "potential fog". We are attributing all these wonderful characteristics on them that they are not displaying in the least. Sometimes we have to get our own head out of the clouds, step back, and think critically. Ask yourself - is this what you want for the rest of your life?

Right now, after d-day, she is supposed to be showing you her BEST self. She is supposed to be trying to win you back. The BEST she has to offer is calling you once she is done with her fun and having you nurse her back to health - so she can do it all again. This is not love, it is abuse. You deserve better. 
Quote 3 0
I am finding it hard to get my head around this, maybe I have misinterpreted what happened..........

She took her AP to a bonfire to meet mutual friends of yours?  It was obvious they were 'together'??  How did she introduce the AP? 
Despite this total lack of respect for you, you continue to allow her in your home, in your bed, to do things for her???

I find this all very confusing.  Please think about what message you are giving to her by allowing this treatment.  Why are you afraid to put some boundaries in place?  Is it from fear that if you put some boundaries in place, it will push her away completely?  While you allow this awful treatment it will continue.  Think about what you want from a relationship. 
Quote 1 0

Ok so I am getting to the point, much thanks to the strength from this community, of wanting to lay out some boundaries. Everyone here has been so great. You guys definitely tossed some much needed 2*4s my way.

Would ya'll throw out some example boundaries for me to get me started?! (insert nervous smiley face smirk ) I really want to make certain that:

A) I am doing more by actions and not words

B) I am not setting a boundary that I will not stick to

C) I am leaving the "door open" so to speak bc I really DO want to save our M.

The person that is cake-eating to her heart's content is not the same person I married. I know many of us feel like this. I know that we can never have the R we previously had, but I also know that we were really great together for many years. I want to be true to following my heart and true to my commitment because I am sure at some point, she is going to think - wow, what have I done and what kind of human have I been. The story of the prodigal son rings true to her mindset and I was raised to show grace even when the person may not deserve it. Thanks for the input and help!
Quote 0 0

Grace, in this situation, is the act of NOT shooting her dead.  That's grace right here...  Also, that is a form of leaving the door open, as long as she is alive she can change...

But ask yourself, "in what way is SHE 'leaving the door open'?"

All other forms of interaction with her, right now, are a form of self harm.  You are not breathing in fresh air in her presence, it is rather like breathing in agent orange...It's poison.

You do realize that even divorce is not the end of the story right?  People can reconcile AFTER divorce.  

Divorce IS, however, a good way of demarcating the end of a chapter... It's a way of saying to your spouse: "It's dead, and YOU killed it.  You want a marriage with me?  Earn it.  Start over.  Re-build from the ground up.  You have to compete with ALL my other options now.  There are people who are kinder than you, wiser than you, more beautiful than you, more loving than you, better for me than you.  Why on earth, now that you've smashed this marriage into a million pieces, should I pick up these pieces...with YOU?  You suck!  And you are not giving me a reason to do any of that.  If you want a commitment from me, you have to give one TO me, and you've just dropped yourself several notches in my ranking system.  You are not impressing me right now.  And I need to be impressed to get back with a cheater.  The average person I might date I can assume the best, give benefits of doubt, because THEY haven't f@cked me over.  You literally f@cked me over, and your track record speaks for itself.  The only way to get to me now -- the ONLY way -- is to impress me.  So dance motherf@cker!! Your competition is superior to you...Get to work!"

IF she makes the effort, that IS the return of the prodigal son. 

The problem with your set up right now, is you think she will "wake up and realize....something someday."  Well, cake eaters don't usually wake up and realize.  They basically have to be electrocuted into waking up.  And the "jolt" that does the job is "consequences".  Losing everything.  Some, upon losing everything, do wake up.  Others, upon losing everything. just blame everyone else.      

And consequences don't have to be forced.  They can just be natural.  The sun rises...the sky turns bright.  Weather turns cold, leaves fall.  A spouse cheats, they get dropped.  You move on and live your life.  Rediscover yourself and what makes you tick.  Understand why you allow someone to abuse you cart blanche like this, then upon strengthening the emotional muscles that prevent you from doing so in the future, find someone else if you so desire, or enjoy your solitude for a while.   

Be skeptical, VERY skeptical of rapid changes of heart and behavior manifested by your cheater.  I'm telling you and so is EVERYONE else here, that the cake eater you see IS the person you married, she just hid it from you as long as she could.  It IS in her character to do this, because she is doing it... Everything else is a USELESS debate that starts and ends with words, and we have already established words don't mean SH!T, actions do... 

So, think about it this way, even divorce is not "shutting the door", because she can transform herself through YEARS of work on herself, and you can re-engage when she is your equal in honoring commitments and offering love with reciprocity.  And since even divorce is not shutting the door, nothing recommended here is not consistent with how you want to live.  Not really anyway, just in semantics. 

So feel free to protect yourself from this abuse.  It is NOT harsh of you to say "I'm not talking to you anymore while you are cheating.  Don't come here anymore.  Don't call, don't text, don't email.  I'm not available to you while you are doing this.  And since you are doing it with an indefinite time frame I have to protect myself from your abuse.  I hoped that you might quickly come to your senses but that has not taken pace.  And it pains me to do this, but your flagrant and public betrayal of our marriage hurts me more.  So, I am filing for divorce effective immediately.  You are ALREADY in breach of our marriage contract.  Divorce merely recognizes that reality.  I wish you happiness with whatever you do.  I'm going to take my life back now.  Good luck to you."   

Quote 3 0
I understand you want to leave the door open for reconciliation. The problem is, SHE has to want to reconcile. Her showing up as she is right now, continuing the affair, blatantly disrespecting you by taking her to meet mutual friends, calling you up when she feels ‘unwell’ (I’m done with having fun- come and nurse me so I can go out to do it again), is so far from the concept of reconciliation that the words don’t even belong in the same sentence.

To put it frankly, her ongoing interaction with you is NOT in any way, shape or form because she wants to ‘save your marriage’. If she wanted to do THAT, she would be on her knees begging. What she is doing is using you and taking advantage of what she knows you will give her, while continuing with behaviour that is clearly hurtful, abusive and disrespectful to you. And you have continued to feed into this whenever she has come calling...

I get it. I remember it. We desperately want to feel ‘wanted’ by or WS on some level. But at what cost to you? Is what she is doing to you worth the hurtful time she is opting to spend with you?

Boundaries are going to vary for each person. But if this had been me...

1. Change the locks:
- make it clear she is not welcome to just drop by or to call on you whenever she pleases 

2. Do not engage in ‘doing stuff together for fun’ right now:
- she lost the privilege of having a relationship with you and all that it goes with when she decided to become a cheater

3. Do not answer to her beck and call:
- you are not her slave. 
- you are the person who she decided she would toss away a relationship with and betray all her vows...

I know a lot of this sounds harsh. It sounds like you are cutting her out of your life. I hear you- you want to ‘leave the door open for reconciliation’. Right now, she’s so blind to what she’s doing to you that the thought of reconciliation likely hasn’t properly registered yet. Because right now, she has the ‘best of both worlds’. 

Take away one of those worlds. Take away YOUR part of the equation- THEN she will no longer have the best of both worlds. Break up this cruel triangle she insists on dragging you into and remove yourself. 

What she does from there is her choice. You do not have to permanently shut her out of your life if she wakes the heck up and works her butt off to change. But till then, you engaging with her is NOT helpful to reconciliation. The only thing it’s helping is feeding her sense of being able to have the best of both worlds...

Read up on the 180 if you can. But honestly, I think the best thing for you is literally cutting her out of your life (at least temporarily). You can always revise that decision. Change the focus to yourself. How can you heal and move on from this? What do you need (that isn’t her?) 
Quote 1 0
OK.. apologies for long rant coming. I need to vent!

SO last night she asked for me to come over and look over some insurance options with her new job. She wanted to build a fire and roast some hot dogs. I agreed as it was a nice night and went. She had another friend there from work and we all spent most of the evening sitting around the fire chatting and having a beer. I went inside to use the restroom and found confirmation of PA still occurring. INSTApissed. Deep breaths, calm down, don't explode on her sorry, cheating butt.

Managed to get calmed down and return to the hang out. I kept pretty quiet the rest of the evening and was trying to keep my emotions in check. Friend left and it was just her and I. She initiated a relationship talk which hasn't happened in a couple of months. She wanted to know what was bothering me and could tell something was off. I was just trying to listen and not bring up the PA or the AP.

She kept pushing to find out how I am feeling and I caved. I told her that I don't want to, nor will I, be a third party in this love triangle. I told her that I knew they were still sleeping together. She tried to deny, deny, deny. I told her about the red handed proof and she confirmed the PA. I tried to remain calm and unaffected. I cried quite a bit and she just kept hugging me and saying she doesn't want to lose me or everything we have worked so hard to build together. She feels as though her friends and family will never accept AP because "you're amazing and my whole family loves you so much". I told her that I want her to be happy in life, even if that is not with me. She hugged me again and I told her I just want space from her right now.

I left.

I'm in pieces today and trying to hold it all in at work. I already feel like someone ripped out my heart all over again. How is it that it has been a year of H*LL and I still hurt over her? Trying to center my thoughts and form a mental game plan for myself and self care.
Quote 0 0

This is hell.  I am so sorry you are in so much pain, but the reality is she is a self centered narc, her mask has slipped and she is SHOWING YOU WHO SHE IS.

Look at everything you just wrote, all of which is confirmation of what we have been telling you.  This was as predictable as gravity.

Listen to what you are being offered here... This person does not KNOW how to practice love the way you do, and is doing NOTHING to shape herself into what she pretended to be.

The reason it has been a year and you are STILL hurting is 1) a year is not a long time, actually, and 2) your clock has actually not yet begun.  Without COMPLETE and TOTAL no contact with her, the poison in your blood has no time to drain out.  

The phrases she says to you are GOBBLDEGOOK word salad designed to freeze you into doing nothing, taking no action, bringing no natural consequences to bear... "I don't want to lose everything WE have worked so hard to build...".  Let me pick that apart for you.  

"I don't want..." -- WHO GIVES A F@CK WHAT SHE WANTS?!?!?!?!?  Why, KristenG, WHY do you care what SHE wants???  She is not a sad little child who has had her tonsils removed and gets to request ice cream for breakfast... She is an adult CRIMINAL who has perpetrated a crime, a CRIME against you KristenG.  She is a THIEF, a FRAUD, a MURDERER, a RAPIST and an ADULTERER.  ALL of those things. 

THIEF -- she has robbed you of your life (stolen and invalidated how many years of your existence)
FRAUD -- she defrauded you into believing she was something she wasn't
MURDERER -- she murdered your marriage without your input or consent
RAPIST -- she engaged in rape by uninformed consent by sleeping with you while sleeping with someone else (that overlap we outlined in the early posts on this thread)
ADULTERER -- the most obvious and needs no explanation

"...we have worked so hard to build...".  Does someone who framed walls to a room and then burned them to the ground get to bemoan how hard they worked to frame the room??? NO!  When they lit that match to flame the structure down they self destructed.  The people who wanted to room get to complain, the arsonist doesn't GET to complain about that or bemoan their loss of the room....She can shut the f@ck up about all that!!

KristenG, acknowledge to yourself that this person was not who you thought they were.  They are all these horrible things outlined above.  Is that a person you want to be associated with in ANY way?

Change the locks,
cease contact,
hire an attorney,
extract EVERYTHING you can materially from this, it's all that is left. 
Let the poison drain out of your system. 
Hang with your family and friends. 
Cut out any Switzerland friends (and family) who allude to "two sides to every story" or articulate an opinion that cheating is anything other than a MASSIVE deficiency of character and integrity on the part of the cheater. 
Work with a skilled, wise person (not exclusive or necessarily present in any and all therapists, there are plenty of SH!T ones out there who will gaslight you into believing you are to blame, F@CK those guys!) to identify your weaknesses, fill those gaps...

...and then go be awesome.

Quote 4 0