Phoenix Show full post »
Keepabuzz
Phoenix wrote:

I am afraid of is reaction and also taking 10 steps back after taking one step forward. 


I understand. Like I said in the post above, it’s ok to tell him how you feel about it.  I really think you should. Tell him you know it could some of your own I securities. If you approach it in a open and honest way, in an effort “only” to communicate your feelings, not dictate what he should do, it could actually be a movement in the forward direction. Just don’t even insinuate that you think he would cheat, that, I believe would not end well. 
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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Keepabuzz
anthro wrote:
For some time after d-day almost every woman I met, aged from 30 to 90, seemed like a better choice of life partner than my wife. I mean they all were actually better choices in that they had all done less harm to me than she had. Every one of them was, on the evidence, a safer bet than her.

Your husband has already considered or will seriously consider being with someone else rather than you. He must. He'd be a strange person if he didn't think about it. It is a thought experiment he has to run through before he can make a meaningful choice to stay with you. It is right and necessary for him to explore that possibility. Most likely it will just be something he thinks through. 


I actually told my wife after d-day that I look at every woman that I pass. I told her I didn’t even care if she was attractive or not, young or old, I only thought this same thought every time - “I wonder if she would betray me”. Tens of thousands of times. 
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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ThrivenotSurvive
I see validity in everything everyone has written.  It is likely that some of his attention is motivated by a desire to make you aware that you aren't the only woman he;s attracted to - a desire to cause a bit of jealousy.  He may not even be conscious of it, but betrayal makes you feel so invalidated, so... "less than" that it is hard not to use every tool at your disposal (including subtle manipulation) to "SHOW" you spouse your value - and regain some level of power within the relationship.  It feels (even if it isn't exactly true) that your partner has shown you that your value to them is LOW, and you in turn by staying, have shown them that their value to you is HIGH.  This power balance is one, among many, things that cause BSs so much fear in the post DD days.  

This doesn't make this a healthy reaction - just a fairly normal one.  

If you two were further down this path I would DEFINITELY say that you should address it, respectfully and tactfully, with all that you have read here in mind .  Mainly because if you are to rebuild your marriage, you don't want to rebuild an unhealthy version but one that is BETTER and more loving and honest than the one before.  if you become more emotionally healthy - just as he decides to play by your old emotionally unhealthy playbook - you've not become better.  You've only traded places.  

BUT, and this is a big but, the timing is rather critical here.  He JUST extended an olive branch and that is likely INCREASING his feelings of insecurity.  While this may be a very crappy way of dealing with it, it could very well be an attempt (psychologically and very subconsciously) to put a little distance between to ease his fear.  Because of that, I'd tread very, very carefully.  

If this behavior continues long term, you will definitely need to address it.  But as I said, I worry that now is too sensitive of a time.  Remember that the discomfort you are feeling right now is one he's had to live with for a long time (the uncertainty of wondering about his intentions/boundaries) and one that he will continue having for a long time until his trust is SLOWLY rebuilt.  There may be a part of him (again, subconsciously) that wants you to experience that. 

Not sure what the answer is, but I would tread carefully. 
BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
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Keepabuzz
I see validity in everything everyone has written.  It is likely that some of his attention is motivated by a desire to make you aware that you aren't the only woman he;s attracted to - a desire to cause a bit of jealousy.  He may not even be conscious of it, but betrayal makes you feel so invalidated, so... "less than" that it is hard not to use every tool at your disposal (including subtle manipulation) to "SHOW" you spouse your value - and regain some level of power within the relationship.  It feels (even if it isn't exactly true) that your partner has shown you that your value to them is LOW, and you in turn by staying, have shown them that their value to you is HIGH.  This power balance is one, among many, things that cause BSs so much fear in the post DD days.  

This doesn't make this a healthy reaction - just a fairly normal one.  

If you two were further down this path I would DEFINITELY say that you should address it, respectfully and tactfully, with all that you have read here in mind .  Mainly because if you are to rebuild your marriage, you don't want to rebuild an unhealthy version but one that is BETTER and more loving and honest than the one before.  if you become more emotionally healthy - just as he decides to play by your old emotionally unhealthy playbook - you've not become better.  You've only traded places.  

BUT, and this is a big but, the timing is rather critical here.  He JUST extended an olive branch and that is likely INCREASING his feelings of insecurity.  While this may be a very crappy way of dealing with it, it could very well be an attempt (psychologically and very subconsciously) to put a little distance between to ease his fear.  Because of that, I'd tread very, very carefully.  

If this behavior continues long term, you will definitely need to address it.  But as I said, I worry that now is too sensitive of a time.  Remember that the discomfort you are feeling right now is one he's had to live with for a long time (the uncertainty of wondering about his intentions/boundaries) and one that he will continue having for a long time until his trust is SLOWLY rebuilt.  There may be a part of him (again, subconsciously) that wants you to experience that. 

Not sure what the answer is, but I would tread carefully. 



Excellent!!!!
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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Phoenix
Keepabuzz wrote:
following a MMA fighter, even a pretty one on Instagram is no where near the realm of porn addiction. I also don’t see a problem with it after what he has been through. He owes her nothing.  Now, he has offered her another chance, and at some point I think he shouldn’t follow this woman, right now might not be the right time to be drawing a line in the sand for her. I know for me, when I was where he is, that would not have been received well. If my wife had drawn a line like that, I would have reminded her where the door was. Others may disagree with me, and that’s ok, but I believe the approach she should take, and I do believe she should approach it now, should be one of “kid gloves”. Not “line in the sand”. She should say that it bothers her. She should tell him how it makes her feel. But now is not the time to be telling him what he should and shouldn’t be doing. I also like MMA, and I follow many fighters. I don’t follow any woman fighters. I don’t ever “like” or comment on girls in bikinis or the like. I certainly don’t do it because my wife told me not to. I do it because I feel it’s not respectful to my wife. Although I probably wouldn’t anyway. That needs to be a decision “he” makes, not one dictated to him by the woman that betrayed him and destroyed his life. 


You see my husband is very much like you Keep, and I know I have to thread water very lightly. I know I have to be very careful how I put it. I did want to only tell him how it makes me feel and let him decide if it matters to him enough to stop. I think that is the extent of what I can do. I will never demand or require something from him. I no longer see this as a way to handle anything in our marriage.I know he has the right to do it because of what I have done. 
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jasmine
Quote:
That needs to be a decision “he” makes, not one dictated to him by the woman that betrayed him and destroyed his life. 


Boundaries are not about “dictating” or “telling someone what to do”. Boundaries are requests, and as you point out, the other party is free to meet this request or not. What is appropriate in one relationship may not be relevant in another. I get this. But there are two potential problems here. One is being clear about what is or isn’t acceptable at a particular point in time, the other is about being able to communicate whatever feelings are arising at the time. Being unable to express oneself in a relationship, or feeling unable to — for whatever reason, not just the issues mentioned here — is not a good foundation for the recovery of a relationship, or for relationships in general. 

I make no apologies for my boundaries because my husband’s behaviour was damaging and destructive to both my physical and emotional health. I “tolerated” so much of his sh*t for 20 years or more and there are day’s when I honestly wish I had walked away then. This is my life and it’s the only one I have. My husband’s behaviour ruined what should have been the best years of my life. My boundaries exist for my own protection. I don’t “tell” my husband “what to do” nor do I “dictate” or set rules. Had I understood boundaries 20 years ago I would probably be in a much better place. 

Yes, I do recognise the difference between following an Instagram account and porn
addiction, but that’s not the point. The real point is — if this is creating feelings of unease, then it’s better to communicate those feelings, and state whatever the concerns are. Even if it isn’t such a big deal in and of itself, it’s still better to say it. I have expressed my concerns to my husband about various things I have felt uncomfortable with, and it’s not easy. But it is a good barometer of how well you communicate (or not). If you are in a relationship where there has been deception, you are almost definitely going to have some communication blind spots.
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Phoenix

If you two were further down this path I would DEFINITELY say that you should address it, respectfully and tactfully, with all that you have read here in mind .  Mainly because if you are to rebuild your marriage, you don't want to rebuild an unhealthy version but one that is BETTER and more loving and honest than the one before.  if you become more emotionally healthy - just as he decides to play by your old emotionally unhealthy playbook - you've not become better.  You've only traded places.  

Exactly! That's exactly how I have felt for a while. Even before disclosure. 

BUT, and this is a big but, the timing is rather critical here.  He JUST extended an olive branch and that is likely INCREASING his feelings of insecurity.  While this may be a very crappy way of dealing with it, it could very well be an attempt (psychologically and very subconsciously) to put a little distance between to ease his fear.  Because of that, I'd tread very, very carefully.  
Got it

If this behavior continues long term, you will definitely need to address it.  But as I said, I worry that now is too sensitive of a time.  Remember that the discomfort you are feeling right now is one he's had to live with for a long time (the uncertainty of wondering about his intentions/boundaries) and one that he will continue having for a long time until his trust is SLOWLY rebuilt.  There may be a part of him (again, subconsciously) that wants you to experience that. 

I believe this to be true completely. Plus, he has conveyed this to me many times.  

Not sure what the answer is, but I would tread carefully. 
Thank you so much!
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Keepabuzz
Phoenix wrote:


You see my husband is very much like you Keep, and I know I have to thread water very lightly. I know I have to be very careful how I put it. I did want to only tell him how it makes me feel and let him decide if it matters to him enough to stop. I think that is the extent of what I can do. I will never demand or require something from him. I no longer see this as a way to handle anything in our marriage.I know he has the right to do it because of what I have done. 


I agree with Thrive. You may want to let this dog lay for a while. He very well may stop liking and commenting on her posts on his own as he feels more comfortable. If not, you can always address it in the future. Yeah he has the ”right” to do whatever he wants, but if you’re going to have a the relationship you both want in the future, the “do whatever he wants” will need to have an end. He will still have the “right” to, but hopefully “choose” not to. 
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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Keepabuzz
jasmine wrote:


Boundaries are not about “dictating” or “telling someone what to do”. Boundaries are requests, and as you point out, the other party is free to meet this request or not. What is appropriate in one relationship may not be relevant in another. I get this. But there are two potential problems here. One is being clear about what is or isn’t acceptable at a particular point in time, the other is about being able to communicate whatever feelings are arising at the time. Being unable to express oneself in a relationship, or feeling unable to — for whatever reason, not just the issues mentioned here — is not a good foundation for the recovery of a relationship, or for relationships in general. 

I make no apologies for my boundaries because my husband’s behaviour was damaging and destructive to both my physical and emotional health. I “tolerated” so much of his sh*t for 20 years or more and there are day’s when I honestly wish I had walked away then. This is my life and it’s the only one I have. My husband’s behaviour ruined what should have been the best years of my life. My boundaries exist for my own protection. I don’t “tell” my husband “what to do” nor do I “dictate” or set rules. Had I understood boundaries 20 years ago I would probably be in a much better place. 

Yes, I do recognise the difference between following an Instagram account and porn
addiction, but that’s not the point. The real point is — if this is creating feelings of unease, then it’s better to communicate those feelings, and state whatever the concerns are. Even if it isn’t such a big deal in and of itself, it’s still better to say it. I have expressed my concerns to my husband about various things I have felt uncomfortable with, and it’s not easy. But it is a good barometer of how well you communicate (or not). If you are in a relationship where there has been deception, you are almost definitely going to have some communication blind spots.


I disagree with some of this. Boundaries, at least for me, are not a request. Boundaries are what I will and won’t accept. They are not requests, or negotiable. Boundaries are different depending on the seat you sit in. My wife as I posted above didn’t like the woman commenting on and liking my posts. If she had said “I don’t like it. It makes me feel jealous and insecure, etc. I need you to unfriend her or block her”. I would have told her to get bent.  On the other side, where I live. I could tell her that same thing about someone, and she doesn’t get to tell me to get bent. Well, she can. But then I’m out. The scales aren’t even, and they never will be. Before her betrayal, the scales were even, boundaries were negotiable so that we both felt comfortable. Not any more. My boundaries are not negotiable.  

I do agree that time is a factor. Time and healing really. I would have told her to get bent in the early years after d-day. Now, I wouldn’t tell her that. We would discuss and I would do my best to make her feel safe and comfortable, but I still wouldn’t unfriend someone for merely liking a picture of my kids, or says “that’s a good looking bunch of kids you have there”. That would not be reasonable. But I feel certain we could work through it.  
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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stillme
This person is a public figure - you can follow her as well. See when she is fighting next, check out some of her matches on Youtube. Sit down with your husband and discuss her fighting style and who might be her next competition. If he is following her because he thinks she is a great and inspiring athlete, he won't have any issue with engaging in that way. 

Get to the root of 'why' you have an issue with him liking her posts and following her. Do you wish he looked at you with more desire? Do you wish he would like more of your posts? Do you wish he was an enthusiastic about you? Talk about that with him. Not about trying to police his behavior, but how you wished he interacted with you.

My BS started with porn and porn addiction. The BIGGEST issue that impacted me, more than anything else - was the fact that he chose pixels on a screen and fantasy over his real wife who was literally just feet away from him. However, there was something that fundamentally changed in "me" as a BS and that was actually feeling true disgust for my husband. As others have noted - anyone seemed better than him. I was embarrassed by him. I had to literally force myself to begin to find him attractive again. 

Even now, there are times when the memory of d-day will drop in my mind out of nowhere and that feeling of utter disgust will wash over me. I know it sounds harsh, but that is truth. I have to force myself to go back to reality and that I chose to stay and that my husband is working hard daily - even three years post d-day, and following the boundaries that I put up, and it doesn't make sense to allow my mind to fixate too long him in that way.


I really don't think WS spend enough time truly understanding all the ways in which they impacted their spouse. Your husband probably felt the lowest in his life after d-day. Particularly because you chose someone else to share your body and mind with. It is an utter form of rejection. He probably spent weeks if not months questioning everything about himself. There is probably some seeking of validation that if "could" get someone else.

It didn't matter if it was healthy or good or 'right' or anything else, after d-day I intentionally looked my absolute best to prove to myself that "he" was the probably. He had an amazing smart, funny, beautiful, and yes - sexy woman right here at home and it was his own failure for going outside this home for any sexual satisfaction. I never got close to cheating on him. I never engaged in flirting or exchanged number or made calls to men in my past. That doesn't mean I didn't notice the looks I got and that doesn't mean it didn't provide some validation that if I left him I wouldn't have to spend the rest of my life alone. Even if it was never more than dinner and a movie - it felt good to know that "I" would be okay and wouldn't become some lonely crazy cat lady if I left. 

And, if he would have approached me at all saying, "Well, I think you look too good" or "Did you just follow some movie star" - he would have been out on his ear.
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jasmine
The only boundaries which are non negotiable are those which would end a relationship immediately and permanently, and those are for the individual to decide. Many boundaries do allow for some negotiation, and some boundaries are not fixed but may be necessary in the short term. My best education about boundaries was in Vicki Tidwell Palmer’s book Moving Beyond Betrayal. 

Nobody here, as far as I can tell, has told anyone to unfollow someone or stop commenting on their photo stream or anything like that. If one partner is behaving in a way that is creating difficulty for another, for whatever reason, the next step is to say “when you do x, I feel like y, could you please [the request]?” At the very least the request might be “can we talk about this?” 

Keep, I don’t know why you are holding onto this idea that I am somehow recommending laying down the law and “dictating” what someone else should and shouldn’t do. It always has to be a request, no matter what the behaviour. I don’t believe that we have to put up and shut up about behaviours that are hurting us, or hurting the relationship though.

I explained my relationship history and why I don’t have pornography in my home. My husband’s pornography addiction ended up with him feeling miserable, depressed and isolated. That’s what addiction does. Everything I have done to block it as far as I can has been at his request. It was never about me “telling him what to do” or me deciding what he is “allowed” to do. But as I have also said elsewhere, I lived with the full spectrum of his behaviours for 20 years or so and it ended up with me being depressed and suffering with an eating disorder that has in turn damaged my body irreversibly. So for those reasons I make no apology for kicking that sh*t to the curb. Life is short and you only get one shot at it,

I will give some thought to my own
”compensatory” behaviours, such as what I did to feel better about myself after d day. 
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anthro
Jasmine for clarity, you realise that Phoenix is the WS and her husband is the BS right? 

I think that makes a difference. 
Formerly known as Anthropoidape... male bs, long affair, d-day Feb 2017.
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Keepabuzz
jasmine wrote:
The only boundaries which are non negotiable are those which would end a relationship immediately and permanently, and those are for the individual to decide. Many boundaries do allow for some negotiation, and some boundaries are not fixed but may be necessary in the short term. My best education about boundaries was in Vicki Tidwell Palmer’s book Moving Beyond Betrayal. 

Nobody here, as far as I can tell, has told anyone to unfollow someone or stop commenting on their photo stream or anything like that. If one partner is behaving in a way that is creating difficulty for another, for whatever reason, the next step is to say “when you do x, I feel like y, could you please [the request]?” At the very least the request might be “can we talk about this?” 

Keep, I don’t know why you are holding onto this idea that I am somehow recommending laying down the law and “dictating” what someone else should and shouldn’t do. It always has to be a request, no matter what the behaviour. I don’t believe that we have to put up and shut up about behaviours that are hurting us, or hurting the relationship though.

I explained my relationship history and why I don’t have pornography in my home. My husband’s pornography addiction ended up with him feeling miserable, depressed and isolated. That’s what addiction does. Everything I have done to block it as far as I can has been at his request. It was never about me “telling him what to do” or me deciding what he is “allowed” to do. But as I have also said elsewhere, I lived with the full spectrum of his behaviours for 20 years or so and it ended up with me being depressed and suffering with an eating disorder that has in turn damaged my body irreversibly. So for those reasons I make no apology for kicking that sh*t to the curb. Life is short and you only get one shot at it,

I will give some thought to my own
”compensatory” behaviours, such as what I did to feel better about myself after d day. 


I’m not making any judgement on you at all. I agree that if “you” choose to make boundaries negotiable, that’s fine for you. My point was that “my” boundaries were not and are not negotiable. Any breech of any of my boundaries by my wife and the relationship is over. 
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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Phoenix

Get to the root of 'why' you have an issue with him liking her posts and following her. Do you wish he looked at you with more desire? Do you wish he would like more of your posts? Do you wish he was an enthusiastic about you? Talk about that with him. Not about trying to police his behavior, but how you wished he interacted with you.

I really don't think WS spend enough time truly understanding all the ways in which they impacted their spouse. Your husband probably felt the lowest in his life after d-day. Particularly because you chose someone else to share your body and mind with. It is an utter form of rejection. He probably spent weeks if not months questioning everything about himself. There is probably some seeking of validation that if "could" get someone else.

Yes, I do wish he would do all those things you mentioned. He stopped liking any of my post on FB and IG right after Dday. To the point I just stopped posting anything 6 months ago. I know it will take time for him to feel safe again. 
He still feels the way you describe. Just today he texted me telling me " I know I wasn't your special guy, the one. Sucks that I have to choose to be this person with no dignity and self esteem so you can be happy.... I guess its my destiny to make others happy and let others do what they want with me and hurt me as much as they want. And you knew you can get away with it and you have gotten away with the whole thin. No major consequence for you, your secret is safe"  So you see he still feels this way. As of now I have not been able to say or do anything for him to gain any confidence back. Ultimately I assuming you have to do it for yourself, no one can do that for you. But as a WS i wish i could mend some of the brokenness.
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Phoenix
Keepabuzz wrote:


I’m not making any judgement on you at all. I agree that if “you” choose to make boundaries negotiable, that’s fine for you. My point was that “my” boundaries were not and are not negotiable. Any breech of any of my boundaries by my wife and the relationship is over. 


I agree with you Keep on this. I think after something like this there should be boundaries and they should not be crossed. I think they help in many ways. Especially for myself. My boundaries were blurred before all this and he never set any boundaries for our marriage. I also think there are healthy and unhealthy boundaries. Sometimes I have to pay close attention to be able to distinguish, even then I will not contest our of guilt and shame.  
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