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ABCOneTwoThree
Phoenix wrote:


OMG, The resemblance between you and my husband is uncanny. With the exemption that my husband still swears and calls me name sand says things that to me are very harsh. On Saturday he stood in front of me and said " I will never apologize for what I have said to you in the past 2 years and I will not apologize for what I am going to say now. The way things are right now and in the position you are in, you will lick my b**** when ever it pleases me." I thought that was very harsh, but what was I going to say? 

Wouldn't it be ideal that every BS reacted like Anthro and that every WS did all they can do to repair the damage and give restitution? This forum has shown me that there is no ideal situation. 

I know that the way we are going about our recovery (if you can call it that) is not sustainable. But I am in for the long haul.  I will continue working on myself. Hoping that one day he will see how much I love him, regret my actions, regret hurting him, hurts me to see him in so much pain, and want to treat him like the king he is. The problem is that if he doesn't the "viable new shared journey" will never happen, because I have resilience. 


Phoenix, I’m sorry, but what he said is inexcusable. I can’t be the only one that felt physically ill reading that. 
Formerly EasyAsABC 
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Phoenix


Phoenix, I’m sorry, but what he said is inexcusable. I can’t be the only one that felt physically ill reading that. 


I understand, it made me physically ill when he said it to me, but what am I supposed to do/ I want to believe this is his journey. 
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ThrivenotSurvive
I will support whatever you want to do, Phoenix. It is your life and you are the one that has to live with the consequences.  

But if you asked my personal opinion , I’d tell you to leave.  If this was 6 months or a year after, I’d still be uncomfortable with the way he’s acting - but I’d think it might pass.  

But at this point -  he may deserve to be angry with you for the rest of your life - but I don’t think you (or your kids) deserve to live through that kind of home life.  It is just destructive.  Two wrongs have never made a right.  

One thing I still cannot reconcile in my head is that there seems to be a fairly common  belief that people who “use” their childhood trauma or abuse as an explanation for their affair or other unhealthy behaviors are full of BS - that it is an unworthy “excuse”.  

And yet, often the same people who feel that it is a lame “excuse”,will, in the next breath, say that it is entirely understandable for a BS to rage non-stop for years.  

But to me that creates significant cognitive dissonance.  

If you can accept the premise that trauma is a profound experience that can fundamentally change how you perceive yourself and the world - as many of our posters feel it has done (and not for the better.) AND you can also accept that it takes enormous effort to keep it from stealing your happiness, your ability to trust and ability to view others without the lens of your trauma (as many of our posters feel) ... than how can you also not accept that trauma at ANY age could leave scars that might lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms (like raging or even an affair)? 

Or alternately - if you feel that it is up to each of us, particularly as adults, to recognize what behaviors are healthy regardless of Howe’s screwed up our childhood might have been and even if our emotions, fears and insecurities try to lead us down a different path - then how could you not say that whether you are a BS or not - you are responsible to act in a manner that isn’t abusive to others (whether they deserve it or not?)

To me - you either say emotional pain does cause people to act out of character at times (and cruelly) especially when they are under stress - or it doesn’t.  

I don’t know which way of looking at it is right - but I don’t see how only BS’ get a pass but grown survivors of emotional and physical abuse when they were children with LESS ability to understand/assimilate what happened - don’t. 

I am not trying to make anyone angry - I genuinely don’t understand how you can hold  such opposing views.  
BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
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Keepabuzz

Phoenix wrote:


OMG, The resemblance between you and my husband is uncanny. With the exemption that my husband still swears and calls me name sand says things that to me are very harsh. On Saturday he stood in front of me and said " I will never apologize for what I have said to you in the past 2 years and I will not apologize for what I am going to say now. The way things are right now and in the position you are in, you will lick my b**** when ever it pleases me." I thought that was very harsh, but what was I going to say? 

Wouldn't it be ideal that every BS reacted like Anthro and that every WS did all they can do to repair the damage and give restitution? This forum has shown me that there is no ideal situation. 

I know that the way we are going about our recovery (if you can call it that) is not sustainable. But I am in for the long haul.  I will continue working on myself. Hoping that one day he will see how much I love him, regret my actions, regret hurting him, hurts me to see him in so much pain, and want to treat him like the king he is. The problem is that if he doesn't the "viable new shared journey" will never happen, because I have resilience. 


I do agree that it would be nice if every WS did all they could, and everything right after d-day. I don’t agree that it would be nice if every BS acted like Anthro. If it worked well for Anthro then great, even though I would venture to guess that Anthro would go back and changes some things he said or did, as well all would. His approach would not have worked for me. That doesn’t make him wrong or me wrong. It makes us different people.

I have regrets from those days, weeks, months, and years after d-day. I wish I had left for a longer period of time. On some levels I wish I told my kids what my wife had done. So they at least would have know what was going on with me. I regret not being able to be the father I had always been during that time. I regret all the time I was distant with my children. I regret every single time I snapped at them because I was in so much pain. BUT I don’t regret one bit of the rage I showed my wife, or a single word I said to her, and I never will.  She deserved SO much more than I gave her. She would say I raged all the time in the early months. I would say I showed her 1/100000th of what was inside me. 

My worry for your husband is when that rage finally subsides and the real pain comes to the surface, that could be more than he can handle. That’s when I went to the dark place. The anger and rage only masks the pain that he can’t let out.  Many people don’t survive it, they go to that dark place and don’t come back. It’s never in the news. No one talks about it that knew that person. No one wants that secret to get out. They are just gone. 

Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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anthro
Yes, I would change a lot. I would in retrospect unsay some things if I could, and say some more very harsh things if I could. And act differently as well. And a whole lot else. I definitely don't think how I handled it was a good model for anyone to follow. Only I would say that I think every human being, WS, BS, AP, whatever, has the best chance at living with themselves in the long run if they strive to be the kind of person they want to be as best they can. In other words we owe it to ourselves to try to maintain standards of decency in how we interact with others, and at some point if you can't maintain your own standards then you do have to remove yourself from the situation altogether. 
Formerly known as Anthropoidape... male bs, long affair, d-day Feb 2017.
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ThrivenotSurvive
Perfectly stated Anthro.  I couldn’t agree more.  
BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
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Keepabuzz

If you can accept the premise that trauma is a profound experience that can fundamentally change how you perceive yourself and the world - as many of our posters feel it has done (and not for the better.) AND you can also accept that it takes enormous effort to keep it from stealing your happiness, your ability to trust and ability to view others without the lens of your trauma (as many of our posters feel) ... than how can you also not accept that trauma at ANY age could leave scars that might lead to unhealthy coping mechanisms (like raging or even an affair)? 

Or alternately - if you feel that it is up to each of us, particularly as adults, to recognize what behaviors are healthy regardless of Howe’s screwed up our childhood might have been and even if our emotions, fears and insecurities try to lead us down a different path - then how could you not say that whether you are a BS or not - you are responsible to act in a manner that isn’t abusive to others (whether they deserve it or not?)

To me - you either say emotional pain does cause people to act out of character at times (and cruelly) especially when they are under stress - or it doesn’t.  

I don’t know which way of looking at it is right - but I don’t see how only BS’ get a pass but grown survivors of emotional and physical abuse when they were children with LESS ability to understand/assimilate what happened - don’t. 

I am not trying to make anyone angry - I genuinely don’t understand how you can hold  such opposing views.  




There are some major differences in your comparison. My wife was abused sexually as a child, and in my opinion emotionally as well. She also tried that “excuse” with me after d-day. That went over like “a fart in a windstorm” with me. No one asked her to “live with” her sexual abuser. She didn’t live with her sexual abuser, but her father is the one who emotionally abused her. I actually told my wife when she tried using that excuse this “and now, would you choose to live with that person who sexually abused you? What would you tell someone if they said you should try to work it out and forgive them and continue living, sleeping, eating, and having sex with this person?”  Yeah we all know the answer.  Adultery is literally the ONLY abuse that you aren’t told to run from as fast as you can  

I don’t now, haven’t ever, and never will subscribe to the thought process that a BS has no right to dish some out. We most certainly do. I know I have hurt my wife with things I have said. I don’t feel an ounce of remorse. I don’t do that anymore, but I sure as heII will again if she says anything to excuse her affair or blame it on me. My rage is still there, and I think it always will be, I’m just better at controlling it, and she doesn’t trigger it. One caviet, I never said a single thing, even on d-day with the intent to hurt or punish, never. I know she doesn’t see it that way, I get it, but I also don’t really care. I was making her see my pain. I can honestly say I never did a single thing to punish her. Not one boundary was there for punishment, every one was for my safety and sanity, or what was left of it. Not that she didn’t deserve it, she certainly did. It was more that there was no punishment that would even the scales. It wasn’t possible. Even a revenge affair wouldn’t have evened the scales. Because her wound would never be as deep as mine, because she decided to betray me, so that would not be unexpected or shocking to the core as it was for me.

Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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Skelling
Keepabuzz wrote:




One caviet, I never said a single thing, even on d-day with the intent to hurt or punish, never. I know she doesn’t see it that way, I get it, but I also don’t really care. I was making her see my pain. I can honestly say I never did a single thing to punish her. Not one boundary was there for punishment, every one was for my safety and sanity, or what was left of it. Not that she didn’t deserve it, she certainly did. It was more that there was no punishment that would even the scales. It wasn’t possible. Even a revenge affair wouldn’t have evened the scales. Because her wound would never be as deep as mine, because she decided to betray me, so that would not be unexpected or shocking to the core as it was for me.



I think thats a really good point, that gets missed a lot. Many BS are not lashing out or raging because they want to punish their WS. (To be honest the thought of getting even or punishment for me only came up in terms of the AP but not my husband, not fair I get it but what is fair in infidelity) More often than not the BS is in soooo much pain, that they have no where to go. i remember one of my earlier posts, where I literally couldn't see me going on. The pain was too much, even the thought of my children, didn't seem to be enough to pursuade me not to put an end to this pain. I think it was Anthro that said its like a bucket full of gasoline, it spills out and keeps on burning. Yes it burns everything around it but the majority is burning in this bucket. Its enormous torture. Now Phoenix I think your husband is taking it too far. Its understandable that he is in pain and a lot that is said needs to be looked at through that lense, however, if he can't bear living with you, because it hurts so much and he gets remined of this pain every day, then it is his job to take himself out of the equation. Heal himself first and then see, if there is room for reconsiliation. I know there is no timeline for the pain but if after so long, there is no improvement and everyone involved is just hurting, then where is the point?
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Crushed
I believe the point is the ws had the affair and bs is suppose to give up their home, their life, their children and they were not the one to throw it all away.  The ws should be the one to leave the home, to get weekends only with kids,  to have to change how they live.  After all they were the one that risked it all.   I am still in angry mode also and this really hits a nerve with me.  I'm sorry but it is just not right or fair that the bs be the one to lose everything 
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Keepabuzz
Crushed wrote:
I believe the point is the ws had the affair and bs is suppose to give up their home, their life, their children and they were not the one to throw it all away.  The ws should be the one to leave the home, to get weekends only with kids,  to have to change how they live.  After all they were the one that risked it all.   I am still in angry mode also and this really hits a nerve with me.  I'm sorry but it is just not right or fair that the bs be the one to lose everything 


I totally agree with this.
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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ThrivenotSurvive
I am sorry, I haven’t been able to check in as frequently - who said the BS is supposed to lose everything and leave the house and kids?  That’s crazy.  

I hope no one thought that was what I was saying.  It definitely was not.  I only said that I see no value in the current situation for Phoenix OR her husband.  If looking at her and dealing with her only brings out pain and anger to the point of him giving himself a heart condition and him verbally abusing her to the point she cries in her car every day - then her leaving might be the best for all concerned.  Neither they, or their kids, deserve to live in that environment after three years.  This may, in fact, be as far as this road goes.  
BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
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Keepabuzz
I am sorry, I haven’t been able to check in as frequently - who said the BS is supposed to lose everything and leave the house and kids?  That’s crazy.  

I hope no one thought that was what I was saying.  It definitely was not.  I only said that I see no value in the current situation for Phoenix OR her husband.  If looking at her and dealing with her only brings out pain and anger to the point of him giving himself a heart condition and him verbally abusing her to the point she cries in her car every day - then her leaving might be the best for all concerned.  Neither they, or their kids, deserve to live in that environment after three years.  This may, in fact, be as far as this road goes.  


I don’t think anyone is saying you said that. I think she was saying that in general. Especially for male BS. Most that divorce their WW’s lose their home, a ton, of money, and have severely limited time with their children. Sad but true. 
Male BS, D-day July 2015, trying to stay out of the dark.....
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ThrivenotSurvive
OH.  That is wrong and unfair.  If you broke it - you should suffer the majority of the consequences for it.  However, the sad truth of life is that it is rarely fair.  
BS - Female
Married 27 years, one adult child
DD May 2016

“When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.” - V Frankl
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Skelling
I can see how my post could be interpreted. I am sorry if itb was cause for anyone feeling upset. I didn't intend it that way. What I was trying to say was that what Phoenix's husband is doing isn't ok. I can relate to his rage and pain very much. And it is true it is unfair the whole thing is unfair and the BS will always be the one suffering the most at least in my eyes. But as a BS I can't look at my husband to heal the wound he caused. He will never be able to do that. He will never be able to make right what he did. He can do his best to help me heal but the healing I have to do myself. And yes its unfair and it sucks. What I was trying to say was, that if it hurts him too much to stay, then perhaps it is better for him if he left or asks his wife to leave but as it is this is no way tyo live, not for him not for her or their children. 

And yes I agree the majority of the consequences should be on the WS, unfortunately it never is. Sure they have to see our pain but they don't LIVE it. Sure they have their guilt and shame but the BS battles that too on top of everything else. At least I do. It sucks. And it sucks even more to accept that and see that in my case the OW lives on as if nothing happens and I think now being over a year out from dday my husband may feel its time to move on too. I can't speak for him but it sure feels like it sometimes.
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ABCOneTwoThree
Skelling wrote:
I can see how my post could be interpreted. I am sorry if itb was cause for anyone feeling upset. I didn't intend it that way. What I was trying to say was that what Phoenix's husband is doing isn't ok. I can relate to his rage and pain very much. And it is true it is unfair the whole thing is unfair and the BS will always be the one suffering the most at least in my eyes. But as a BS I can't look at my husband to heal the wound he caused. He will never be able to do that. He will never be able to make right what he did. He can do his best to help me heal but the healing I have to do myself. And yes its unfair and it sucks. What I was trying to say was, that if it hurts him too much to stay, then perhaps it is better for him if he left or asks his wife to leave but as it is this is no way tyo live, not for him not for her or their children. 

And yes I agree the majority of the consequences should be on the WS, unfortunately it never is. Sure they have to see our pain but they don't LIVE it. Sure they have their guilt and shame but the BS battles that too on top of everything else. At least I do. It sucks. And it sucks even more to accept that and see that in my case the OW lives on as if nothing happens and I think now being over a year out from dday my husband may feel its time to move on too. I can't speak for him but it sure feels like it sometimes.


I don’t know the specifics of your situation, and I don’t know if this will help or not, but not every OW gets to live on as if nothing ever happened, even if outwardly it seems that way. 
I can promise you that someone who believes participating in an affair is reasonable or acceptable has other pre-existing issues that you don’t want to envy, and unless they get help they will continue living with that character deficit for the rest of their life. Imagine believing your only worth is being someone’s part time side piece. I’m not saying that so you’ll pity her, but so you’ll understand that she’s paying a price even if she doesn’t show it right now. 
I think OW/OM are rarely unfeeling sociopaths, eventually the havoc they’ve helped create will catch up with their conscious, for some it happens faster than others. Admittedly, some may very well be sociopaths, but I think that percentage is lower than anyone may think. 
A while back I posted a thread on my old account about my AP contacting me because his partner looked me up on FB and was subsequently raging at him over it. The more time I’ve had to process that, the more I believe it was more than just being able to put a face to the name, I’m sure it was infuriating seeing my public persona look so unaffected. I had only 10-11 public photos, but the ones that had me in them were fun, happy, smiling photos of me with my family. Now, maybe I’m interpreting that all wrong (god knows I’ve done that in the past too) but I can understand how on the outside it might look like I’m fine, I’m unaffected, and I’m suffering no consequences for my actions. The truth is, I seriously considered ending my life at least two times since December of last year. I take anti depressants and anti anxiety meds just to be able to function now. I don’t believe I’ll ever be able to maintain a normal and healthy relationship again. 
I’m fully aware that I caused this, so the difference is I chose my pain and she didn’t, I’m not trying to compare and say whose pain is worse, just that there may be prices your husbands former AP is paying that maybe you don’t know about. 
Formerly EasyAsABC 
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