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Kalmarjan
Totally agree. I am still learning every day.

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Intuition77
Kalmarjan wrote:
Totally agree. I am still learning every day.



Me too! And I think it doesn't help that each gender is inclined to see their method of thinking as wasn't it obvious?
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Kalmarjan
Intuition77 wrote:
Kalmarjan wrote:
Totally agree. I am still learning every day.



Me too! And I think it doesn't help that each gender is inclined to see their method of thinking as wasn't it obvious?


LOL. Yes. You know, way back in the day my wife actually said to me, "you should JUST know."

Then again, I'm not the easiest to guess in out relationship either.
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TimT
Intuition77 wrote:
...I think true forgiveness for something so severe as an affair evolves over time. Much more time then most people think, I read many BS only weeks or a few months away declaring they've forgiven and I don't really know if that's a healthy forgiveness or a forced one? I couldn't imagine feeling forgiveness so early on, I just don't know how it could even come about...

I agree that the work of forgiveness is directly tied to the severity of the offense. And since most in this Community agree that the betrayal of an affair is about as bad as an offense can be, the work of forgiveness will be significant.

There is no magic formula: "Do these 3 things during the next 3 weeks and you will discover forgiveness!" No way. It really is a process that takes longer for some than for others. Nobody should be forced into it.

And the eventual choice to forgive doesn't mean the work of forgiveness is over. Every time the pain of a past offense is triggered, I feel the urge to reach back into the past and clobber the offender with accusation again. Forgiveness is the choice that allows me to be honest about the pain while refusing to pick up the weapon. (Or to quickly correct things if I falter.)

Having said that, I have seen betrayed spouses move to forgiveness within weeks or months. I am always suspicious of forgiveness that comes too quickly because it really does take longer than that (sometimes much longer) for most. But it is real for some. Their past experiences & beliefs play a major role in this, but perhaps the greatest influence toward forgiveness is their own awareness of the need to be forgiven. Those who have experienced forgiveness for past failure and brokenness in significant ways are able to embrace grace/forgiveness more quickly.

And remember, the struggle with TRUST will usually continue well past the point at which forgiveness is offered. They are related, but separate. You can release the past offense (forgiveness) but remain uncommitted to re-entering that vulnerable place (trust) necessary for a fully healed intimate relationship. Both require taking intentional steps, but forgiveness always comes first.
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awaggoner1999
TimT wrote:
Intuition77 wrote:
...I think true forgiveness for something so severe as an affair evolves over time. Much more time then most people think, I read many BS only weeks or a few months away declaring they've forgiven and I don't really know if that's a healthy forgiveness or a forced one? I couldn't imagine feeling forgiveness so early on, I just don't know how it could even come about...

I agree that the work of forgiveness is directly tied to the severity of the offense. And since most in this Community agree that the betrayal of an affair is about as bad as an offense can be, the work of forgiveness will be significant.

There is no magic formula: "Do these 3 things during the next 3 weeks and you will discover forgiveness!" No way. It really is a process that takes longer for some than for others. Nobody should be forced into it.

And the eventual choice to forgive doesn't mean the work of forgiveness is over. Every time the pain of a past offense is triggered, I feel the urge to reach back into the past and clobber the offender with accusation again. Forgiveness is the choice that allows me to be honest about the pain while refusing to pick up the weapon. (Or to quickly correct things if I falter.)

Having said that, I have seen betrayed spouses move to forgiveness within weeks or months. I am always suspicious of forgiveness that comes too quickly because it really does take longer than that (sometimes much longer) for most. But it is real for some. Their past experiences & beliefs play a major role in this, but perhaps the greatest influence toward forgiveness is their own awareness of the need to be forgiven. Those who have experienced forgiveness for past failure and brokenness in significant ways are able to embrace grace/forgiveness more quickly.

And remember, the struggle with TRUST will usually continue well past the point at which forgiveness is offered. They are related, but separate. You can release the past offense (forgiveness) but remain uncommitted to re-entering that vulnerable place (trust) necessary for a fully healed intimate relationship. Both require taking intentional steps, but forgiveness always comes first.



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Thanks Tim. It took all the faith I had to take the step to forgive. I fully understood the importance of forgiving transgressions. My belief - is that I ask for forgiveness daily for my own transgressions and amazingly, it is given to me, so It would be contrary to my own belief to not make every effort to forgive- in spite of the depth of the betrayal. It was terribly hard and the soul searching went to great depths, I did not get there instantly or easily.
Additionally, I still feel as though I am grieving the loss of my history, my best friend, my husband...that grief has been overwhelming a times. But I know it is a part of my process.
SO I still feel I can be a bit frustrated - when I know I have clearly stated what I need from my WH, and he provides the hollow apology in lieu of that request. To me he is attempting to absolve his own pain. I feel that I will steadfastly make gains on my grief (pain) as time passes [smile] 
He is forgiven...so he has to accept what I have had to do to move on. Simple as that.

And I would hope I have done much to not cause confusion or send mixed signals to WH or you all. I have clearly stated to this man, what is necessary. I know I will not get it. So I am taking care of me, realizing that my WH may never clue in. Apologies if it seemed I was sending a wave of confusion. Thanks for discussing this topic at such great lengths.

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SuzieQ
"...she tried to work at the marriage for months thinking he was too only to hit all his obstacles that he wasn't really doing any of the work. If that's true there's a good chance she tried. And tried. And tried some more to explain a million ways what and why she needed (she referenced sending him articles or books-been there done that in trying anything to explain what I needed) and just kept hitting his walls (which op are all about him and not you) so by a certain point I myself just was done.

What a wS may not see is all that anger and pain the BS is showing you, that you hate because it makes you feel shame or your own flaws, that you wish would just go away-that's the only thing keeping your BS connected to the marriage. They are behind you on the timeline. They are still attached at first. And all that anger and pain is them still connecting to you and wanting you to feel their pain and connect back. They are still reaching out to a spouse to help heal
As a couple and face things together. In a way it's them still trusting you some in a sense of they are showing you their vulnerability. If they we're truly done and hated you the minute dday happened they'd be gone without a thought or word. So when they try and try and get nothing back eventually they will stop showing you their vulnerability. They will detach like you did way back. Because they have to for their own sake. Men seem to take silence or less arguing as positive no conflict. But for most women this is when they've truly checked out. If she's showing you anger and pain and tears and expecting you to do something about it-she's still invested in wanting you to be the man that protects her heart. If she's silent and not bothering you with her pain or tears-she's determined you will not protect her heart and she's withdrawn the offer from the table. And not trying to be insulting but yes men seem to not get this quickly.

This is I see now what most BS need to do sooner as it seems to shake the wS fog more. But I've noticed a difference in gender as when a woman reaches this detachment stage she seems more likely to just be done. She's burned out. She's given all she can and taken all she can. She's closed off completely. And sadly this is where a lot of male WS seem to wake up and she's completely closed up by this point, it would take massive effort to get her back to that vulnerable state again and many times the men seem so completely flabbergasted and lost by this they don't know how. (& yes as a woman the very idea that they are flabbergasted makes no sense to me, to me the writing was on the wall for so long how could you miss it?)

So I'm Not saying this is the ops situation but her response to her husband while I heard what you heard in regards to mixed messages, I also heard hurt and a sense of I can't keep Putting myself out there so this wall Is here for my own Protection. He may have been putting out feelers but many times they do that and then quickly withdrawal when we tried to move toward them so eventually we stop moving toward them. Men seem to move quicker to self preservation. A woman will many times put her family or marriage above her own pain so when she gets there she's truly been In pain a long time."

THIS! THIS! THIS! You have a way with words Intuition! This is EXACTLY how I've been feeling for two months now and have tried to explain it to my WH. This really helped me process my feelings. Thank you for sharing.

So how can I help him understand this? Should I just come out and say it or is it something he needs to figure out in his own?

I don't want to give up...but I can't make him fight for it.
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Kalmarjan
As a WH and a male, yes... Just come out and say it. Dumb it down to the point where there is no escape by mistaking what you are saying.

Clarity trumps feelings, and I once had a very very wise person say to me that when it comes to communication, it's all about what the other person perceives as the message that is important. No matter what you mean, if they don't understand that meaning then you are wasting your time.

Get down to basics, and spell it out. It may be hard and it may hurt, but there is no arguing with it either.
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